When do you call down after being raised on the turn?

wyrd · #1 11-23-2005, 03:34 AM

I hate giving away money, and this seems to happen a lot. I have top pair, and on the turn someone all of the sudden becomes aggressive and raises me. Do I just call down at that point? Here's are two hands where this happened;

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
4 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP3 calls, CO folds.

Turn: (3 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls.

River: (9.70 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.70 BB

chadplusplus · #2 11-23-2005, 04:13 AM

<Grunch - because I suck at these situations, too>

Hand 1:

Seems like a fold to the check raise. Seems like someone either got tricky and waited until the turn to pop you with A9 or hit a weird 2 pair or a set.

Um, to calculate whether its worth calling down or not, you need to figure out what it'll cost you and what your odds are. Essentially, there are 6 BB in the pot when it comes back to you and you can assume that he'll probably charge you on the river too, so you'll have to place in two more BB to win 7 BB giving you 3.5:1 to call down. For this to be profitable, you have to be ahead here 29% of the time or more - opponent specific reads are nice here. Essentially, the 6 is a pretty weak kicker so you're pretty easily beaten and this is a pretty bold play for someone just bluffing and usually indicates better than top pair.

Hand 2: Looks like a 67 hit his OESD. But you hand is much stronger in this example. Similar odds calculation, but here your hand is much stronger. Two more BB to win 9.70 BB or 4.85:1, so you only have to be right a little more than 1/5 of the time here to make this profitable and your hand is much stronger here in hand 2, so I would probably call this one down, but not the first.
</grunch>

Let the guru onslaught begin!

Oh, and I suck so don't take my word for anything, I'm just posting so I can get corrected.

ajm36 · #3 11-23-2005, 04:43 AM

The first hand is easy. You fold this PF. The reason you don't call this PF is because of the situation you find yourself in with this hand. On the second hand, you can probably fold to the turn raise (opponent reads would help in determining whether you should fold or call. Seems to me you are probably up against two pair or a set. If you think you are up against two pair, which two do you think you are up against? If you think you are up against Q4 you should call the turn raise, if you think you are up against Q8, you should fold.

ArturiusX · #4 11-23-2005, 04:44 AM

Hand 1: If he's solid and never gets out of line, I can fold to the turn raise. Otherwise, I call down.

Hand 2: 3-bet the turn.

rgb · #5 11-23-2005, 07:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: 3-bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, can you explain the reasoning behind this?

rgb

#6 11-23-2005, 08:06 AM

Hand #1:

Ace-garbage off sucks in this position (and most other positions BTW) so you should toss it like it is burning your fingers. There will likely be some here that will defend the half bet call but I don't think it (even getting 7:1) could ever be profitable in the long term. There are times you may try to snap off a steal but that's not what is happening here.

This flop illustrates the difficulties of playing such a hand. The problem is magnified by your position. The bet is okay if the thought was to steal the pot. Even though Ace-garbage is a bad hand to play with you will see many, many micro players who always limp with it preflop. Here you have to fear (and are behind) A9, A8, A7, and A3 as well as "legitimate" Ace holdings like AJ, AT and (incorrectly) limped AK and AQ. You are ahead of only A2, A4 and A5 as well as any small pairs (except pocket 9s or 3s). The pot is small (4 SB). Your choices are to bet out and hope everyone folds (not likely with four in but it does happen), to check/ fold, or to check/ call (don't bother). So you bet out and get one taker, unlucky, get ready to fold the turn to any strength.

On the turn, nice try (again), but you I think you have to fold to the raise.

Hand # 2:

All looks good. WTF is MP1 check raising the turn with? A set? It has to be. Against an unknown or a known good player I would respect this raise. Against a LAG or a SLAG I would probably 3-bet, but this is probably not correct. I spew a lot with TPBK against a probable set. Slowing it down as you did is probably correct.

chadplusplus · #7 11-23-2005, 12:33 PM

For hand 2, re: 3-bet:

To me, the 3-bet turn is very read dependent. Here it really looks like the guy either hit a set or hit a straight. But of course that depends upon his VPIP. A half way reasonable player is not limping with Q4, Q5, or Q8, but some folks do like to limp with suited connectors, i.e. 67s or 45s, especially if the table is loose passive preflop. Pocket 4s, 5s, and 8s are also plausible. So what was his VPIP? Also to be considered is his AF. If the guy hasn't raised for 200 hands, easy fold. If he's been a border line maniac or worse, easy 3-bet.

It also depends upon your table image at this point. Have you been overly aggressive? Have you not gone to show down recently? Maybe its someone with QJ trying to reign in your aggression. Even the fish pick up on the fact that you've been bullying people around for the last few hands.

Hmm, can someone do the EV for the 3-bet as opposed to calling down? Too many contingencies for me to come up with a workable model.

But again, the fact that the pot is much larger and your hand is much stronger in hand 2 at least warrants a call down in my opinion.

No one has mentioned the fact that if you fold here, or fold several times to a turn check/raise, you may encourage others to make similar moves making the rest of your time at the table more difficult. But I figure this is close to negligible at the lower microlimits - most people are just watching TV between hands.

rgb · #8 11-23-2005, 02:51 PM

Chad, I appreciate your points regarding reads, image, board texture etc.

Just wondered why an experienced poster advocated a 3-bet as the default here (ie, with no reads).. whether there's something about the hand I don't understand that makes this correct.

rgb

WalkAmongUs · #9 11-23-2005, 03:28 PM

I sometimes have this problem as well. I don't lay it down to a turn check-raise when I should.

The only reason I can come up with to 3-bet is that by 3 betting you put the pressure back onto your opponent. Most players will give up with a bluff and possibly fold. Also, if they have something vulnerable like TP with a mid to low kicker or even top and bottom pair they will just call you and probably check to you on the river. Then you can check behind and showdown.

Basically, if you 3 bet you can fold to a cap knowing for sure that you are beat or check behind for a "free" showdown.

Thats my interpretation

wyrd · #10 11-23-2005, 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I sometimes have this problem as well. I don't lay it down to a turn check-raise when I should.

The only reason I can come up with to 3-bet is that by 3 betting you put the pressure back onto your opponent. Most players will give up with a bluff and possibly fold. Also, if they have something vulnerable like TP with a mid to low kicker or even top and bottom pair they will just call you and probably check to you on the river. Then you can check behind and showdown.

Basically, if you 3 bet you can fold to a cap knowing for sure that you are beat or check behind for a "free" showdown.

Thats my interpretation

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe my math is a bit off, but if you 3-bet rather than call down, aren't you spending the same amount of bets? Calling down costs two bets, and so does 3-betting (calling the raise plus raising another bet).