Need help with a hand

#1 10-11-2005, 11:37 PM

I dont' really have a read on anyone here since I just joined the table.

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Omaha/8 (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls, UTG+1 :#A500AF(villain)/ calls, 1 fold, MP1 (poster) checks, Hero calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, villain bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises, MP3 folds, Button folds, BB folds, UTG folds, villain calls.

I flop a low with several draws to the wheel.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
villain bets, Hero raises, villain 3-bets, Hero caps, villain calls.

Am I right to be capping it like this since I have so many draws?

River: (13.70 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
villain bets, Hero calls.

Here I just call since I missed any form of a high.
Final Pot: 15.70 BB

Villain ended up 3/4 me, as he had the same low as well as the high.

Can you guys tell me when I should be capping and when I shouldn't? I'm still kinda new to omaha hi lo.

#2 10-12-2005, 03:51 AM

I would probably just call his 3-bet on the turn there but cap it if I had a flush draw to go with the wrap + nut low.

Jim Morgan · #3 10-12-2005, 07:37 AM

This brings up a subtle point that I have seen come up a lot in Pot Limit O8. Very often the nut lows drive the betting so fiercely that other hands simply must bail.

In your example, the only high only haad that can stand the heat is a set of Aces. If, lets say, everyone goes all in for the turn, the set hold up unless a 3,4, or 5 hits, and perhaps an odd card like a dia or a straight card will beat it (is someone is playing JT23 or some such garbage). Assuming the low hands have a combined 15 outs for high, the set will do OK. It will get a 50% return on investement when it holds up and will lose 100% when it gets snapped off. I am ignoring hands like a wrap on the 89, which really should have hit the muck long ago. Usually the money in the pot will give it the necessary odds and if the other hands are weak in redraws (such as nut low without a wheel wrap or without diamonds) then the set may hold up on all but a handfull of river cards.

Getting back to your example, If an oppoent actually has a set of aces with nothing else, he is a total moron to go rasing heads up, but with 3 way action it is really quite rational, especially if the 3rd player is not on a low and is going on some sort of high draw (that probably has no business calling).

So.... assuming your opponent is actually looking at a nut low hand, what are your prospects? It depends.... If he has NO PAIR with his low, you are way ahead. If he as any pair (or a 2 with a kicker that beats yours), you are way behind EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE A WRAP on low. Give him 349T and he is way ahead. And, if he is playing any sorf of reasonable hand, he probaly started with A34 or 234.

If, as we are guessing, he has 34, I don't quite know what to think of my pair of deuces. I like it, but I am not in love with it.

I think your raise on the flop is very likely to be a nut low or a set (probably aces). When he fires into the turn, he "should" nut low. Betting a set of aces here is a very bad play now that it is heads up. Furthermore, he should porbably credit you for a nut low to raise here. (or a strong high and a decent low)

When he bets into you here, he should be thinking he will scoop or get 3/4ths. In other words, he has nut low and some sort of high or high draw.

Since he did not simply re-raise the turn, I suspect he liked the 9. Either it paired him, gave him a flush draw, or perhaps he simply had something like A34J and wanted to see if the turn was friendly before he got very deep in the hand. If he is a rational player, I strongly suspect he had A34x. Since he re-raised you once more, I am actually quite tempted to say he had A349 or A34x with a diamond draw.

All in all, I think rasing with your hand on the flop is reasonable. You do have a pair and a wrap along with (duh) total counterfeit protection. However, once the turn is a blank for you, and your are heads up, I think just calling is all you can do. And maybe that is even a mistake, though I know I am simply not good enough to lay that hand down, since I will figure that there is a decent chance that I have the only low and am freerolling the high.

On the river folding is also pretty tough. I don't think I would, but then again, maybe I suck at PL/O8.

I am not sure my overall response was clear, so let me summarize. I think raising on the flop is OK. I know I would do it, but upon reflection, I am not sure that is the right move.

I think your opponent's turn bet MUST be respected. You are either on a relatively minor freeroll against a high hand or you are quite far behind. A34x seems very likely and I simply do not want to raise into that one. With a diamond draw and my pair of deuces, I might raise, but even that may not be so wise.

Jim

chaos · #4 10-12-2005, 08:13 AM

I think the biggest problem with this hand is the way you played the flop. There were four players to act behind you when you raised. Since they had to cold call two bets they all folded, leaving you heads up. I think a better play was to just call and pull in some players.

Ironman · #5 10-12-2005, 08:58 AM

I agree with Chaos.

I know this hand looks great from the flop, but it's not. Especially heads up.

This hand would have been much more profitable for you if you had called the flop. That way some of the high draws would have stayed in.

Now,if you had flopped the nut low, and a high pair...that's the type of hand that I want heads up, so that I can scoop or 3/4.

I suspect that's what your opponent had. Something like A 3 4.

Dave

Ribbo · #6 10-12-2005, 01:32 PM

Eh? If I had AA on that flop, it's an easy check fold and one I make constantly. Yes low hands lead it hard because AAxx is nothing more than a draw to half a pot on the flop. 2345 is a draw from half a pot to all the pot.

#7 10-12-2005, 05:15 PM

ok thanks for the advice, so I should slow down when I only have one side of the pot and cap it when I have a really good draw to both sides?

benwood · #8 10-13-2005, 10:17 PM

In Omaha, the pull strategy is much more important than in Hold'em. The need for it comes up a lot more because of the hi-lo aspect of the game. It's crucial to be able to recognize pull situations. On the flop here, it's better to just call & pull in customers,IMO.

paulewalnutz · #9 10-14-2005, 11:56 AM

I like Jim's analysis, and think that raising the turn once but not capping was the right play.

I disagree with Jim to the extent he suggested folding on the turn or river. It's not PLO8, it's limit, right? In that case, once you realize there's a good chance you're quartered (and I think that doesn't happen until his 3-bet on the turn), you just call the turn to hope to do some quartering yourself (with a wheel).

On the river I think pot odds dictate a call even if you know you're quartered, which you can't be sure of here, but I think you can be 80% sure.