Rag war...

chesspain · #1 05-19-2005, 01:04 PM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Just sat down, so no read on the opponent.

Preflop: chesspain is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, chesspain checks.

Flop: (2.33 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
chesspain bets, CO calls.

Turn: (2.16 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
chesspain bets, CO calls.

River: (4.16 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
chesspain checks, CO bets, chesspain folds.

Final Pot: 5.16 BB

Does anyone prefer either bet-folding or checkcalling the river?

chief444 · #2 05-19-2005, 01:14 PM

With no read, I'll often just let these ones go early. If he bluffs me off a better hand and pulls in that enormous 2.33 SB pot then so be it.

But I don't really have any constructive advice. Just a general comment that I'm never completely certain in these "rag wars" as you call it. And I'm less certain and more prone to just avoid them without a read.

adamstewart · #3 05-19-2005, 01:19 PM

I think if you're gonna fight in pots like this, you have to raise preflop.

Villain open-limped from CO! Surely he can't be strong (and if he's just 'slow-playing' a big pair, you'll find out sooner rather than later).

Raising preflop gives you increased fold-equity on the flop.

That said, I prefer not to get into these types of hands after just sitting down at a table, with no reads. Throw in a flop bet if you like, but after that I'm done, unimproved.

CallMeIshmael · #4 05-19-2005, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Raising preflop gives you increased fold-equity on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I cant back it up with stats, but I feel this is at least debatable.

2 reasons why:

1) You are offering him better pots odds (which some may not even realize)

2) (more important) I find a lot of badish type players refuse to get bluffed out of a pot in these situations. Given that you raised preflop, you are betting a heads up flop just about 100% of the time.

I find in situations like this, they tend to see the bet on the flop after the preflop non-aggression as a more honest signal of a good hand.

SmileyEH · #5 05-19-2005, 01:25 PM

I think a bet on the flop is fine. Check fold the turn, but if he checks behind I would bet the river regardless of what comes out.

-SmileyEH

flair1239 · #6 05-19-2005, 01:48 PM

I wait for more information, before I get involved in something like this.

I probably don't even bet the flop.

Without information and with a hand that is probably even weak in relation to the CO, I don't think I am giving up to much EV, by just being done with the hand.

As a side note. I traditionally do not play well in my first couple hands. As usually I am just getting settled in, and in some cases still have tables opening. Part of the reason I would pass, is because I don't want to knock myself of kilter right off the bat.

brettbrettr · #7 05-19-2005, 02:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
bet-folding

[/ QUOTE ]

Check-folding here is pretty bad, IMO. If you're going to continue to try to steal this on the turn I think you have to follow through on the river, no matter what card falls.

jskills · #8 05-19-2005, 02:31 PM

I actually prefer check / calling the flop. Before you call me a big vag, my post flop agg stats are somewhere between 2.5 and 3, so I am aggressive when I see fit.

It just seems here you should fold when out of position and bet at. Why spend all those bets to win only the same amount you put in?

I could be wrong of course. If so, maybe it is due to the fact that I find myself spewing way too much in these situations and have been trying to just let it go ...

adamstewart · #9 05-19-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I actually prefer check / calling the flop. Before you call me a big vag, my post flop agg stats are somewhere between 2.5 and 3, so I am aggressive when I see fit.

It just seems here you should fold when out of position and bet at. Why spend all those bets to win only the same amount you put in?

I could be wrong of course. If so, maybe it is due to the fact that I find myself spewing way too much in these situations and have been trying to just let it go ...

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't see anything profitable in check/calling the flop. What is Hero drawing to? (Note: he does not have correct odds to even try to pair either of his cards).

Calling has to be worst of three options. At least betting out has fold-equity.

...or was that a type-o: "check / calling"....? as it doesn't seem to agree with the rest of your response. (Never mind, if it was [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

Adam

CallMeIshmael · #10 05-19-2005, 02:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't see anything profitable in check/calling the flop. What is Hero drawing to? (Note: he does not have correct odds to even try to pair either of his cards).

Calling has to be worst of three options. At least betting out has fold-equity.

...or was that a type-o: "check / calling"....? as it doesn't seem to agree with the rest of your response. (Never mind, if it was [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

CMI

[/ QUOTE ]