Dear Christians: Your child doesn't believe in Jesus. Now what?

[hmkpoker]

Ok, so let's assume the following: you're a devout Christian, married, with one teenage child. And, free will exists.

Now...

You've raised your child in a Christian environment. Not an overwhelming one, but a good one nonetheless. You, your spouse and child have attended mass each Sunday for the past decade or more, and maybe there was a Bible study session or Sunday school every here and there.

Your sixteen year old child comes home from school one day with disturbing news: he has been thinking a lot lately, and has decided that he doesn't believe in Jesus, Heaven, Hell, or God.

You sit down and talk with him for a few hours, but unfortunately, the two of you seem to run into a logical wall. Your child is unconvinced, and furthermore expresses that he would no longer wish to go to Church with you and your spouse.

Your child has free will. The same free will that allows some atheists to come from Christian homes, and Christians to come from atheist homes. If free will exists, then attempts to steer your child into or out of Christianity should be useless. Obviously you want your child to believe, but he is a human being and will, ultimately, make up his own mind regardless of what happens.

What do you do?

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so let's assume the following: you're a devout Christian, married, with one teenage child. And, free will exists.

Now...

You've raised your child in a Christian environment. Not an overwhelming one, but a good one nonetheless. You, your spouse and child have attended mass each Sunday for the past decade or more, and maybe there was a Bible study session or Sunday school every here and there.

Your sixteen year old child comes home from school one day with disturbing news: he has been thinking a lot lately, and has decided that he doesn't believe in Jesus, Heaven, Hell, or God.

You sit down and talk with him for a few hours, but unfortunately, the two of you seem to run into a logical wall. Your child is unconvinced, and furthermore expresses that he would no longer wish to go to Church with you and your spouse.

Your child has free will. The same free will that allows some atheists to come from Christian homes, and Christians to come from atheist homes. If free will exists, then attempts to steer your child into or out of Christianity should be useless. Obviously you want your child to believe, but he is a human being and will, ultimately, make up his own mind regardless of what happens.

What do you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to let the child do what he wants. You can only pray and wait...attempts at persuasion are useless at some point.

[hmkpoker]

If neither we nor God can interfere with free will, what good does prayer do other than alleviate our anxiety?

[Mempho]

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If neither we nor God can interfere with free will, what good does prayer do other than alleviate our anxiety?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question. Excellent. I think that people pray in order to hope that God puts the child in a situation in which the child can see more clearly. This might be even be a difficult situation. The child still has a choice to accept or reject, however. Most people go through a "rock bottom" of some sort during their lifetime...during which questions of purpose in life are asked. It is during these times that the true choices are made. For instance, a drug addict does not really "choose" to take drugs everyday. That is simply what the drug addict does. Normally, they don't even conciously think about the choice they have. When the drug addict gets arrested or almost dies, however, it puts them in the position to at least consider what they are doing and if they want to continue. Some drug addicts swear it off forever and some immediately go back for more drugs, aware of what they are doing. The times of choice are those "dark nights of the soul" that are brought on by an outside influence. In God's eyes, all you have to do is make the correct decision one time.

"Dear God -

Please make my child horribly miserable, so that he becomes so depressed, that his only hope is to start believing in you again. Make him deathly ill... an almost fatal car accident might work... make him utterly hopeless. Bring him to the point where life for him is not worth living -- complete dispair. Then, Lord, may he come back to your loving arms.

Love in You,
-- Concerned Parent"

Thats exactly what I heard when he wrote that.

All I know is that as an atheist, if my kid grows up believing in Jesus, after I've made sure that he really knows what that means, Im gonna leave him the hell alone.

Whatever floats your boat. Like I've said before, some christians seem to have lost the part of the bible that says "judge not, lest ye be judged first". This loss even extends to their own children.

FWIW, my mom is a devout Catholic, and knows Im an atheist. She has told me that its my life, I can live it how I want, amidst dropping many hints that she too was an atheist at my age. She still prays for me and stuff, but doesnt pressure me.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that people pray in order to hope that God puts the child in a situation in which the child can see more clearly. This might be EVEN be a difficult situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Mempho deserves this attack. He did not say that he necessarily wants harm to come to his child, he said he wanted God to influence his decision through whatever means an infinitely wiser-than-us entity can.

I disagree, however, with Mempho's notion that drug addicts don't "choose" to do drugs; they have as much choice as anyone else.

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that people pray in order to hope that God puts the child in a situation in which the child can see more clearly. This might be even be a difficult situation. The child still has a choice to accept or reject, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is beginning to resemble a probabilistic model of choice.

God obviously doesn't determine for us whether we believe or don't believe, according to most Christian beliefs. Yet, some do and some don't. If it is impossible to determine which choice a person is going to choose, then I think we have to acknowledge the presence of a random element here.

However, I think it is also reasonable to assume that some people are more likely to believe than others. I'm sure some kind of competant demographic study would suggest that people are much more likely to be believers if they come from Christian homes, and less so if from other homes.

These factors are beyond our control. It is reasonable to hold God as responsible for them.

I think that what you are suggesting is that an intervention on God's part might increase the chances for the child to believe. Perhaps he has a 40% chance of eventually believing if he lives an easy-street life, and a 75% chance of believing if he experiences some kind of tragedy.

Is this an accurate analysis?

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that people pray in order to hope that God puts the child in a situation in which the child can see more clearly. This might be even be a difficult situation. The child still has a choice to accept or reject, however.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is beginning to resemble a probabilistic model of choice.

God obviously doesn't determine for us whether we believe or don't believe, according to most Christian beliefs. Yet, some do and some don't. If it is impossible to determine which choice a person is going to choose, then I think we have to acknowledge the presence of a random element here.

However, I think it is also reasonable to assume that some people are more likely to believe than others. I'm sure some kind of competant demographic study would suggest that people are much more likely to be believers if they come from Christian homes, and less so if from other homes.

These factors are beyond our control. It is reasonable to hold God as responsible for them.

I think that what you are suggesting is that an intervention on God's part might increase the chances for the child to believe. Perhaps he has a 40% chance of eventually believing if he lives an easy-street life, and a 75% chance of believing if he experiences some kind of tragedy.

Is this an accurate analysis?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I think that while its not individually about statistics, it could be quantified statistically using a given population.

Thanks for your defense on the prior thread. It got out of hand. I think it is better to use the following scenario to illustrate:

You have a son that is addicted to crack cocaine. You have gone to every possible length to prevent it and to cease the addiction. Your child is 19 years old and you can not commit him to rehab. He will not go voluntarily. You are deeply sorrowed, believing your child will die if nothing can be done. You pray about the situation and God comes down to give you a choice:

A) God does not intervene and the child goes on "enjoying" his life. In three and a half years, he will OD and die.

B) Officer Barbary will go for his usual midnight visit to the doughnut shoppe. The Krispy Kreme machine will break and the place will not have any of the hot Krispy Kremes that Officer Barbary loves. As such, he will leave the doughnut shoppe with a cup of java in hand and will commence driving around to kill some time. Since he is on break, he decides to go look at the progress of the new mall to kill time. He sees your son at the construction site receiving a baggie from the dealer. He calls for backup and the arrest is made. You get your son an attorney who gets him a deal...4 months in jail on good behavior and a suspended sentence pending good behavior. Your son goes through rehab and enrolls in college, gets his degree, gets a nice job, gets married, and has a nice life.


Which do you choose? Obviously you don't want your son to go to jail, but that was the only way to send him the message.

[etgryphon]

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If neither we nor God can interfere with free will, what good does prayer do other than alleviate our anxiety?


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Free Will is a red herring which we like to think is the overruling factor. Our hearts are compelled to that which we find beautiful or most desirable.

Its like a gameshow host shows us two doors. We get to choose (free will) whatever is behind the two doors. So the gameshow host opens the two doors. Behind door #1 is a hot steaming pile of fresh dog crap. Behind door #2 is a million dollars. Now, remember you have free will you can choose the pile of dog crap if you want and it is completely up to you. The Gameshow host isn't going to make you choose the money. But is this really a choice?

That is what Christianity is all about. Door #1 is a life lived for yourself in sin and ultimately hell and eternal damnation. Behind Door #2 is eternal life and purpose and fulfilment.

Praying is petitioning God to open the eyes of your child to see what is really behind door #1 and door #2. God has authority of our perceptions or else he wouldn't be sovereign.

-Gryph