Someone PLEASE Explain This to Me

[sthief09]

The biggest leak in my game is my propensity to slowplay, check-raise, trap, and trick my opponents into thinking I'm weak when I'm strong and strong when I'm weak. I'm always one of the tightest and usually the most aggressive non-maniac at my table, and when I'm winning I feel this aura of invincibility where I can outplay anyone (this isn't true and I'm humbled when the more observant players proceed to trap me and butcher me).

Mathematically I can't prove to myself that slowplaying just about every set and almost always waiting for the turn to raise anything good (2 other players max) is unprofitable, even though I know it probably is.

I'm the type of person that needs proof so someone please explain this to me:

When I read all the "good" players' posts, they always do a lot of flop raising. This seems to cost them a half a bet, because they could have raised the turn instead. Why do people always raise, even if it'll only trap 1 person for 2 bets? I have a midterm in 5 hours which I haven't really studied for and I'm still posting here, so I need to stop now, but I'll post some hands tomorrow. But in the meantime, please give me some reasons why raising the flop instead of the turn is best.

Note: I'm only talking about small pots, where opponents aren't getting the price to call for 1 bet, let alone 2. I don't slowplay in big pots, unless a flop raise will still give my opponents the price to draw on bottom pair or a gut shot, in which case I'll wait until the turn, where my raise will completely destroy their odds.

I'm really hoping someone can snap me out of this phase I'm going through, because I KNOW it's a leak, I just can't stop doing it for some reason.

[Nottom]

The best reaon I can give for raising the flop is the fact that there just isn't the same level of respect for flop raises as there is for turn raises. You can raise someone on the flop and still get people to call 2 with middle pair, people will 3-bet you with top pair, and do all sorts of other good things when you have a set.

When you wait til the turn, many players will now fold to a raise when they would have called a flop raise as well as a turn/river bet.

Plus a lot of my sets go more like this anyway. Guy bets, I raise, he 3-bets, I call. Turn: he bets, I raise.

There are times when waiting til the turn is correct, but I really suggest you try playing them fast for a while and see how it works out for you.

[sthief09]

I think that's what I was looking for. thanks! (still not studying)

[Bob T.]

I think playing fast works, because it is a lot easier to win small bets, than it is to win big bets. When you make raises on the turn, a lot of time, you won't get many callers, but especially in low limit poker, you will see players routinely taking one off on the flop, even if they have to coldcall.

Also, if you don't bet, or raise, you don't get the opportunity to three bet, or cap it on the flop, and a lot of the really huge pots are started with a big pile of small bets, which mean the big bets have to go in, because the apparent odds to chase are there.

Finally, if you play your big hands fast, many of your low limit opponents will fail to recognize your hand for what it is, until too late, because they would always slowplay their big hands, so by playing fast you are playing deceptively in a twisted sort of logic.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[sthief09]

well the first two posts have convinced me. thanks guys. this almost makes up for the fact that I have a midterm in 4 hours and haven't studied more than 15 minutes.

[Bob T.]

Good luck. I once went into a Econ Midterm in that condition, showed up late, finished first, and somehow aced the damn thing.

[Glurfle]

I would add to the other replies that playing your sets and other big hands fast on the flop gives you some cover for the other hands you might raise on the flop (various pairs, draws, and whatnot). If I know that your flop raise means you have no better than top pair since you're going to slowplay your sets, then I also know that I've got a pretty good chance of check-raising you on the turn with something like bottom two pair.

[Gramps]

It's pretty much already been said, but I think most online (i.e. Party low limit) players expect opponents to slowplay trips, etc., because that's what 75% of Party players do. Or when you're in the BB with Q5 and the board comes 7-5-5, they expect you to wait until the Turn to pop everyone, and they may fold where you may have gotten calls/gotten played back at on the flop. It's kind of double-reverse psychology, one with a strong hand usually bets...so Party players often don't bet/don't expect a strong hand to bet right away....so if you play your strong hand fast, people often won't give you credit for it, and a lot of bets will go into the pot from a lot of players on the flop with you holding the best hand.

The point of slowplaying (in part) is to give your opponents misinformation about the strength of your hand. You take the risk of letting them see the Turn cheaply (or for free) in return for them thinking that you have a weak(er) hand than you really do, getting you paid off hansomely (you hope) on 4th and 5th streets. If this misniformation objective is not achieved (if he had a strong hand, he'd check-call/smooth call the flop and bet or C/R the Turn), then the play may end up being -EV.

Or...if they're "loose flop callers" but won't call a Turn bet without a decent hand, you may have gotten 1 extra SB out of them by raising the flop (some players will call with junk, then auto-call a raise), but they'll fold on the Turn anyhow (unless they catch their miracle card).

I've also been diagnosed with the "overslowplaying syndrome," I'm still in a 12-step program to full recovery. When I flop a strong hand, I always feel better about making a mistake by betting/raising and winning the pot early, than when I give a free/cheap card and lose the pot (unless it's unraised against 1 or 2 non-aggressive opponents). Plus, as has already been said, it does disguise some other hands you would raise with on the flop (like if you have trips in LP on a two-flush board, someone may put you on a flush draw and bet into you on the Turn when a 3rd suited card doesn't come. Bet-call-call...COME TO PAPA!!!!).

P.S. If your midterm is essay, go ahead and write in clearer and more organized fashion than the above post... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
Note: I'm only talking about small pots, where opponents aren't getting the price to call for 1 bet, let alone 2. I don't slowplay in big pots, unless a flop raise will still give my opponents the price to draw on bottom pair or a gut shot, in which case I'll wait until the turn, where my raise will completely destroy their odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is true, unless they have completed thier draw on the turn already.

[Huh]

I seriously doubt this is the biggest leak in your game. Slow playing in the situations you describe seems somewhat proper.

Into a med-large field I will slowplay a set quite often on a good board. It really depends on the game you are playing, but waiting till the turn to show strength with a good deal of hands has all types of benefits, from allowing you to charge draws the most, to knocking out live hands that have a decent draw, to getting more money in the pot with the best hand, and even to saving yourself that half a bet when things go terribly wrong.

Now don't get me wrong, if the person to my left bets, and several people call, I'm popping it right there, or if I'm out of position in a heads-up pot I'm betting out (I love this), or if I'm in an eight-way pot I'll bet out...So...I guess I am saying I wouldn't swear it off, but I think if it's a mistake it's a pretty minor one.

-Huh