Holocaust Denial

People in Europe are just to sensitive. I heard that a French politician was fined 200,00 $ for saying the holocaust was a minor detail. He is a jerk for saying it, but a fine?

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Most Historians believe 6 million Jews is a fairly accurate estimate. The Nazis were very meticulous in recording everything. This ranged from property seized, to people gassed. Most of the evidence for the holocaust was kept by the Nazi's themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

There has been no proper/scientific determination of the number of European Jews murdered by the Nazis. And as I already said, it may turn out that the Jews that perished were much less than Sxi Million, e.g. that they were in fact Three And A Half Million. In addition to this, I have not, pesonally, seen any credible documentation that has the Nazi leadership ordering the extermination of the Jews. (All we have is the infamous Wannsee conference of Nazi officials, but without convincing records either.)

There is, on the contrary, historical evidence of the Nazis planning as the "final solution" to the problem a "mass and forced" evacuation of Jews from Germany and Europe and their relocation elsewhere, possibly ..Madagascar! (Yes, it was been considered seriously by many parties.) What is astonishing, incidentally, is that the Zionist leadership of the time, and especially some grossly misguided Zionists in Germany tried to collaborate with the Nazis, in order to achieve an orderly evacuation of Jews elsewhere, and preferably Palestine. (Some even offered to fight alongside Germany against Britain, if they were promised British-held Palestine after the war!)

No matter.

I already wrote up my own (final) solution to this artificial dilemma: <font color="red"> SO WHAT? </font>

So what if there is indeed no "explicit" order for the extermination? So what if the figure is less than Six Million? This does not make the crime any less monstrous and it does not make the Nazis any less guilty of it. I have no time arguing minutae of mass murder with anti-semites --- some of whom are already active in this thread. Simon Wiesental was totally correct to hunt them down mercilessly; the Israelis were totally correct in tracking and abducting/assassinating every single officer and functionary of the killing machine they could get their hands on; the Soviets were totally correct in blocking any attempt at clemency towards imprisoned Nazis, including the "old and frail" Rudolph Hess.

It was a holocaust. End of story.

[Gamblor]

There is, on the contrary, historical evidence of the Nazis planning as the "final solution" to the problem a "mass and forced" evacuation of Jews from Germany and Europe and their relocation elsewhere, possibly ..Madagascar! (Yes, it was been considered seriously by many parties.) What is astonishing, incidentally, is that the Zionist leadership of the time, and especially some grossly misguided Zionists in Germany tried to collaborate with the Nazis, in order to achieve an orderly evacuation of Jews elsewhere, and preferably Palestine. (Some even offered to fight alongside Germany against Britain, if they were promised British-held Palestine after the war!)

Zionist negotiation with the Nazis is not evidence of anything other than Zionists negotiating with Nazis. The fact that the Zionists were negotiationg with the nazis is a de minimis effect when you consider the intention of the Zionists was to save the Jews living in Europe from their usual discrimination at the Nazis hands. In other words, mere negotiating with a party is not evidence of concurrence of ideologies. It is only evidence that there was some mutual gain to be made through the negotiation.

In an analogous situation, if you could negotiate with the devil to provide him some benefit in exchange for permanent peace...

[Cyrus]

This is supposed to be a thread about Holocaust deniers. And I'd hate to see it hijacked by the likes of you. That said, I'm pleased to see you, as the air marshal said.



[ QUOTE ]
Mere negotiating with a party is not evidence of concurrence of ideologies.

[/ QUOTE ] You and I know that the right wing Zionists' hyper-nationalism of the time coincided neatly with the National-Socialist ideology. The poor dumb f*cks simply did not understand that, although right wing Zionists shared with the Nazis an abhorrence of socialism, bolshevism and democracy, the Jews were simply on the Nazis' sh*t list and would NEVER make the list the Italian fascists were on.

You may know (and try to gloss it over) but other people do not know that there was both a lot of (how did you put it?) concurrence of ideology AND collaboration.

[ QUOTE ]
It is only evidence that there was some mutual gain to be made through the negotiation.

[/ QUOTE ] "Mutual gain", huh ? Tell us about the German right-wing Zionists' offer to fight alongside the Nazis against Britain in World War II. Go on.



[ QUOTE ]
Zionist negotiation with the Nazis is not evidence of anything other than Zionists negotiating with Nazis.

[/ QUOTE ] Zing ! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Peter666]

The Canadian Ernst Zundel was jailed and deported even though he broke no law due to his stance on the holocaust. That's illegal and tantamount to Nazism.

The word "Holocaust Denier" is left wing propaganda itself. Pro Zionist lobbyists and left wingers purposely try to distort the facts with these kind of catch phrases. I do not know people who deny that the holocaust or some grave injustice took place during WWII against the Jews. What they are arguing about are the numbers, intent, methods etc.

We know with certainty that the numbers of Holocaust victims were purposely inflated right after World War II by Zionist groups to gain sympathy in their formation of Israel. There use to be a plaque at Auschwitz that said "8 million died here" which was changed to 6 million, then 4 million, and then it disappeared altogether. The Soviets purposely inflated Nazi crimes to cover up their own.

The Iranian Prime Minister is stating a half truth by implying that the Holocaust is a lie. What is true is that numbers were purposely inflated to gain international sympathy in forming the state of Israel (1948) which is an injustice against the arabs.

[Gamblor]

The Canadian Ernst Zundel was jailed and deported even though he broke no law due to his stance on the holocaust.

Criminal Code s.319:
(1)Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of:

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for
two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Criminal Code

The leading case in this field is R. v. Buzzanga and Durocher (1980), 49 C.C.C. (2d) 369, (Ont. C.A.), in which the accused distributed tongue-in-cheek flyers satirizing hatred and were still charged under s.319(2). It ended up decided in favour of the Crown because even though they didn't have the requisite mens rea of promoting actual hatred, they knew it was likely to and it oblique intent is equally as culpable as direct intent.

The rest of your post is the saddest misconstruction of facts I've ever seen.

[Peter666]

On which of these points was Ernst Zundel convicted after due process of law?

Why did he spend several years in prison for an unconvicted offense that at the most would lead to two years of imprisonment?

And finally, the facts above may make you cry out of sadness, but which of them is false?

[zipo]

It seems to me that there are several varieties of Holocaust deniers, who have in common a deep sense of hatred and bigotry toward Jews.

Some of these deniers are adherents of 'the big lie' - that is, the Holocaust never occurred, and is merely Jewish or Zionist propganda.

Others are minimizers - they acknowledge that "something" happened, but try to chip away at the scope and scale of the Holocaust.

Then there are the obfuscators - those who try to muddy the waters and raise extaneous and tangential issues in an attempt to divert and distract from the sheer horror of the Holocaust.

Some of these types are easy to spot. They are vicious haters, plain and simple, and are obvious to all.

Others are more insidious - they understand how most decent people would be appalled at those who attempt to lie about, minimize, distort, and obfuscate the historical facts of the holocaust. So they cloak their hatreds and their agendas with a veneer of civility and politeness.

Observant ones will not be fooled.

[Darryl_P]

You must be a very good psychologist for being able to draw such firm conclusions about human emotions on such little information. Congratulations.

[zipo]

Thank you for your kind words.

It's nice to be appreciated.