QQ - the right amount of aggression? - Page 2

lautzutao · #11 10-07-2005, 04:38 PM

either QQ or AA. I don't see anyone ever 3-bet jacks unless it's a hand post on this forum(obviously it happens though). Looks to me like a 50/50 if I'm mp3. And I'm aggressive so I push.

Edit: alright, I just argued myself out of this conversation[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] haha. Alright, I see your point. But what else can you do with villian's weakness on the flop? And I do see this as weakness.

Shillx · #12 10-07-2005, 04:43 PM

Well you can't press any harder then you did as you bet/raised every chance you had.

This is a bad flop for you, and I would just be inclined to check and call the whole way. I know it sounds silly, but if we get aggressive in this hand we pretty much have to dump it if the villian fights back. The problem is that the villian can't like his hand too much if he has KK (our play looks a lot like aces). Obviously we call a flop cap if it comes and then fold the turn UI, but if he just calls the 3-bet with kings we are stuck since we are OOP. If we check to him, he will bet them and then we are forced to pay off to stop a bluff with AK. If we bet he will just call, so either way we put in two more BB with the worst hand.

This hand is a bitch. I hate all of our options on the river. I don't like check/folding against an unknown, I hate check/calling and betting doesn't seem to have much value since our only real hope here is that he has the other QQ or a very curious AK. I don't know what to tell you dude, but it seems like the villian outplayed you here since he had position. It also goes to show that being aggressive isn't always the answer in this game. If he throws in another raise, we just toss the hand in. By playing passive (with KK or AA) he collects another couple bets from us.

Brad

milesdyson · #13 10-07-2005, 04:43 PM

should have check raised the flop (i agree with shill that check calling down is viable too, however). if he has AK we want to protect our hand against the other dude. betting and three betting a J-high flop with QQ is ugly, though, against a normal player who capped preflop and who won't raise 99/TT/AKo on this flop. you're up against AA/KK/QQ/AK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] when he raises the flop, and there's only 1 QQ and 1 AK possible.

silencio · #14 10-07-2005, 04:45 PM

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haha, my 2nd orbit at a table and I'm dealt KK. I'm capping the flop and raising the turn if I'm bet into. I'll slow down to the 3-bet

*EDIT- Maybe this is Egoistic Fallacy, but with zilch known about the villian...this is how normal KK would be played here yes?

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EF aside, put yourself in MP3's seat. You capped preflop and then got bet into and 3-bet by an unknown OOP Villan...what do you put him on?

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JJ

Shillx · #15 10-07-2005, 04:48 PM

The preflop action doesn't really matter much. Let's pretend that you have AA in this hand for a second. You can't 5-bet him preflop so eventhough he has the "lead" when he caps it, you are the one who is going to come out betting since you obviously had the best of it preflop (and would have reraised if you could). So a bet into a capper from a 3-better will commonly be from a hand that wanted to go more preflop and not something like JJ that flopped a set or AKs that flopped a flush draw.

#16 10-07-2005, 04:50 PM

NH. I don't see where you could have been more aggressive and I don't see any reason to slow down. Villan most likely has AK or possibly AJ.

lautzutao · #17 10-07-2005, 04:51 PM

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should have check raised the flop (i agree with shill that check calling down is viable too, however). if he has AK we want to protect our hand against the other dude. betting and three betting a J-high flop with QQ is ugly, though, against a normal player who capped preflop and who won't raise 99/TT/AKo on this flop. you're up against AA/KK/QQ/AK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] when he raises the flop, and there's only 1 QQ and 1 AK possible.

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How does making it 2 bets to "the other dude" protect our hand here? At that point there would be 18SB in the pot by the time it got to UTG?

I understand how you're putting villian on his range of hands, but what does the other player has to do with this? He's either calling with his junk/draw or he isn't.

lautzutao · #18 10-07-2005, 04:53 PM

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The preflop action doesn't really matter much. Let's pretend that you have AA in this hand for a second. You can't 5-bet him preflop so eventhough he has the "lead" when he caps it, you are the one who is going to come out betting since you obviously had the best of it preflop (and would have reraised if you could). So a bet into a capper from a 3-better will commonly be from a hand that wanted to go more preflop and not something like JJ that flopped a set or AKs that flopped a flush draw.

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Well $***, I've never really thought of preflop action that way.

But if this is the case, why even bother check/calling down here? In case he's capping AK or bluffing us?

bozlax · #19 10-07-2005, 04:57 PM

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The preflop action doesn't really matter much. Let's pretend that you have AA in this hand for a second. You can't 5-bet him preflop so eventhough he has the "lead" when he caps it, you are the one who is going to come out betting since you obviously had the best of it preflop (and would have reraised if you could). So a bet into a capper from a 3-better will commonly be from a hand that wanted to go more preflop and not something like JJ that flopped a set or AKs that flopped a flush draw.

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I agree with this completely. So, by betting out the flop I'm representing to Villan that I've got AA/KK/AKs, right? By 3-betting what am I saying? If, hypothetically speaking, he has KK, how will he play it in the face of this much aggression?

And, to lau, I don't think there's anything else to do once Villan calls our 3-bet. But, I'm kind of curious if I should have 3-bet at all HU and OOP.

milesdyson · #20 10-07-2005, 05:05 PM

there would be 16 bets in the pot, he would be getting 8:1 to call the check raise, and he could fold a 5 outer for fear that the flop is going more bets. then instead of being up against 11 combined outs, we're against 6 if the capper has AK.

if we choose to be aggressive, we should check raise. the most important thing is that 3-betting the flop here is usually really wrong. and the river is bad because of how we played the flop. what can he call with that we beat?