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Old 12-08-2005, 03:29 PM
Entity Entity is offline
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Default Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1. SB is 67/13, Button is 45/12.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: Great for me, but I would have continuation bet anyway.

Turn: Did the SB hit his flush or trips? I raise to find out.

River: Maybe it was the button who is slowplaying, or did he just hit his weak ace? If I posted this in Micro Limits I'm sure the advice would be to "reraise the donk!" but maybe the constant hammering has turned me into Lee Jones, so I just call to see his flush as cheaply as possible.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (7 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB


[/ QUOTE ]

Looks fine. Fold to a turn 3-bet.

Hand 2. Villain is 42/0.

[ QUOTE ]

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Maybe I should have raised preflop to get my PFR up, but it seems to me I want to see the flop cheaply with A2s. If I flop an ace I'm not going to win a kicker war, so I call.

Flop: My first instinct is to open-fold since I know I'm beat by any ace, but that's not the 2+2 way. So I evaluate the hand. I have a backdoor nut flush draw, a backdoor nut straight draw. I already have top pair, but no kicker. If the board pairs, however, then nobody's kicker matters. So I bet to see what shakes out. UTG raises. When donks flop a flush, straight, or trips, they always wait for the turn to raise. Always. But that's MUBS, right? Maybe he was just has an ace, I paired my kicker and he didn't, so I 3-bet.

Turn: All my backdoor draws are gone, but I now have two pair. I'll beat any two pair unless someone has aces and something other than deuces. So I bet again.

River: Has to be a blank. Surely nobody was drawing to a gutshot wheel on this board. UTG bets. Do I call to see the showdown as cheaply as possible, or do I take the 2+2 way and raise? I raise. He calls. Maybe I was right about his ace. He'd 3-bet the straight, right?

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls.

River: (14 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB


[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop is fine. Call the river.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 3. Villain is 30/15.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: I'm behind to AK, AQ, QQ, KK, JJ, and he could have 3-bet any of those PF. If he has one of those, then maybe I should just check/call all the way down. But maybe he has TT, AJ, or with a PFR of 15, lots of other hands. I have TPGK, so I bet.

Turn: He really likes his hand so now we're in check/call to the showdown, right?

River: Now this is an interesting card, so I'll check/raise this donk. Oops. What did the LAG have that he would have checked here? It didn't even put me on tilt. It just amazed me, and sent me back to the books trying to find out what I'm doing wrong.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd check-call the flop and turn, and bet-call the river.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 4. Villain is 30/15.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Same donk.

Flop: TPGK, that's it, but I raised PF, so I'm definitely betting out here. They all come along. Great. More money for me.

Turn: MUBS again, but I resist the urge to open-fold, and lead out. Nobody raises. Maybe just this one time nobody has an ace.

River: Okay, I'm beat by a lousy, lowly deuce, but I'm trying very hard to stop giving up every time the river completes a flush or straight, so I bet.

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP2 calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB


[/ QUOTE ]

Calling this river raise seems pretty darned bad to me.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 5. Villain is 36/0.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: The dreaded ace on the flop, with four loose opponents. One of them has it. I know it. You know it. We all know it. But I'm rather obligated to bet out here. The one who has it should raise, and some of the rest of them should fold, right? After all I raised PF, so maybe I have an ace too.

Turn: Nobody folded. They never do. Only three of them can have an ace, and I've actually seen that happen in this situation. More than once. In any event, I'm done sweetening their pot, and decide to just call it down as long as nobody's raising.

River: There's that flush and straight again. At least I'll get the satisfaction of seeing the ragged ace get beat by somebody's miracle card on the river.

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd fold the river.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 6. Villain is 30/5.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Flop: Only two opponents this time, wow. Maybe nobody has an ace and nobody flopped the flush. Maybe BB is bluffing, on a flush draw, or maybe he has the ace. They always have the ace, right? So I raise.

Turn: He goes into ace-calldown-mode. He had the ace, I raised, so now he's just going to hunker down and see if his ace is bigger than mine. And I have him isolated, that's what raising is all about.

River: I'm beat. I know it, so why waste another bet?

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (5.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB


[/ QUOTE ]

Unless villain is incredibly overaggressive I'd usually fold the flop.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 7. Villain is 24/8.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

I definitely have him isolated, but there's an ace on the flop. Can anyone really make a case here against open-folding?

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB


[/ QUOTE ]

Why'd you call down? Unless villain is LAG, I generally fold the turn. If he's LAG or you suspect him of taking a shot at you calling down is fine.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 8. Villain is 16.5/4.85.

But sometimes I win.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO folds.

Final Pot: 3.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard.

From my observations you don't seem to do a whole lot of thinking about what your opponents could have or what they likely have when they bet, call, c/r, etc. Raising preflop will help you maximize your earn, but you need to start working on reading hands more. You appear to hate folding any pair, and see a showdown too often when it's too likely you're beat. Your jokes about openfolding suggest a core of weaktightness and a recent history of running bad. But most importantly I really think you need to start thinking about what your action will be before you get raised, before you get bet into, etc., rather than just frustratingly hitting the call button. Start posting more hands -- try for 1 or 2 tough hands every day -- in the microlimits and look for good advice by posters like jaxup and others. There are some good players there who can help you sort out your postflop errors. Your problem doesn't seem to be with Ed (he was right the first time, and is right again), but more with some basic mistakes you're making that shouldn't take too long to correct.

Just MHO.

Rob
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  #22  
Old 12-08-2005, 03:34 PM
jb9 jb9 is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 136
Default Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

I didn't have time to read all of your examples (cause I'm at work and supposed to be, you know, working...), but I have a few comments for you. I'm not the greatest limit player, so take this advice with a grain of salt.

[ QUOTE ]
I've won when taking shots at 2/4, enough to consider abandoning 1/2 and moving up. I hesitate to do this, however, since "If you can't beat 1/2 you can't beat 2/4."

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can afford to play 2/4, have success at it, and will drop down if you lose to much, don't postpone moving up because "you can't beat 1/2". There's not a huge difference between the 2 limits, but there is a difference, and it's possible your game is better suited for 2/4. I skipped 1/2 (cause I had the bankroll) and never missed it.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1. SB is 67/13, Button is 45/12.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (7 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

Flop: Great for me, but I would have continuation bet anyway.

Turn: Did the SB hit his flush or trips? I raise to find out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you going to fold to a 3 bet? If not, just call. If button doesn't raise, you have a reasonable chance to get to showdown for 1 more bet (the same one you spent raising here). If button raises and small blind calls, TPTK is probably no good.

[ QUOTE ]
River: Maybe it was the button who is slowplaying, or did he just hit his weak ace? If I posted this in Micro Limits I'm sure the advice would be to "reraise the donk!" but maybe the constant hammering has turned me into Lee Jones, so I just call to see his flush as cheaply as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

The river is tough. Re-raising would be a definite mistake. Overcalling is a mistake against decent opponents. Against these players, you probably need to call the raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2. Villain is 42/0.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls.

River: (14 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

Maybe I should have raised preflop to get my PFR up

[/ QUOTE ]

I cringed when I read this. Never do anything to adjust your stats. You do not work on your stats. You work on your game. The stats take care of themselves. Raising weak suited aces here is usually a bad idea.


[ QUOTE ]
If I flop an ace I'm not going to win a kicker war, so I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are playing for 2 pair or better.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: My first instinct is to open-fold since I know I'm beat by any ace, but that's not the 2+2 way. So I evaluate the hand. I have a backdoor nut flush draw, a backdoor nut straight draw. I already have top pair, but no kicker. If the board pairs, however, then nobody's kicker matters. So I bet to see what shakes out. UTG raises. When donks flop a flush, straight, or trips, they always wait for the turn to raise. Always. But that's MUBS, right? Maybe he was just has an ace, I paired my kicker and he didn't, so I 3-bet.

Turn: All my backdoor draws are gone, but I now have two pair. I'll beat any two pair unless someone has aces and something other than deuces. So I bet again.

River: Has to be a blank. Surely nobody was drawing to a gutshot wheel on this board. UTG bets. Do I call to see the showdown as cheaply as possible, or do I take the 2+2 way and raise? I raise. He calls. Maybe I was right about his ace. He'd 3-bet the straight, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think betting the flop is OK, the raise on the turn isn't bad, but I wouldn't raise the river after UTG capped the turn (if he is 42/0 I assume he's not the most aggressive player in the world postflop).

One last thing (before I get back to work), try not to let thoughts like "what will the posters on the message board think" interfere with your decisions at the table. Make the decisions that seem best to you at the time. Post the hands later, and if someone disagrees with your play, try to understand why so that next time you have a similar decision your own thinking about the situation will be different (rather than just thinking "someone said I should raise in this situation so I'll raise in this situation").

Good luck.
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  #23  
Old 12-08-2005, 03:54 PM
milesdyson milesdyson is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 197
Default Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

when i read through your hands i agreed with everything entity said.

the KJ/QT/QQ/TT hands all show, imo, that you make enough postflop mistakes to be a losing player. i do not think it's just variance. you have a formulaic preflop game and you do not play well postflop.
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  #24  
Old 12-08-2005, 04:46 PM
droolie droolie is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: In the butt Bob
Posts: 404
Default Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

You need to a coach or at least a buddy to watch you play. Your confidence is in the toilet and you have a loser's mentality.

I had a very similar experience when I 1st started playing 6-max. I was a solid full-ring player at micros but at 6-max it seemed I was playing better than my opponents but somehow I was getting creamed all the time. The suckouts were unimagineably common and painful. After a while it affected my play in ways I didn't realize. I finally got the nerve to ask for real live help and some of the micro regulars who were good or better at 6-max agreed to look at some hand session histories and sweat me while I played for free. I would open a table and my coach would sit at a different table and we would open each other
's tables and watch each other play. Whenever I had a decision to make I would tell my hole cards to my coach on AIM. Since we were both one tabling we had plenty of time to chat about each others hands. No collusion mind you just coaching. This helped me and I believe my coaches (who were not charging me anything and were not the best player s either but just solid proven winners) immeasurably.

For one it helped because they were able to catch what I was doing wrong but it helped to watch how a successful player plays a session. It also helped my subtle form of tilt that occurs when you lose. Having a witness/ cheering section to my session made the losses hurt less. Sort of like having a shoulder to cry on or at least someone to share the anger with really helps.

I highly recommend finding an established winning player to do this for you. Start participating in the micro forum and you'll surely find more than a few willing coaches to sweat you and you might make some friends along the way.
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  #25  
Old 12-08-2005, 04:54 PM
Guthrie Guthrie is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 471
Default Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

Thanks for the reply, and I agree with your comments. That's the way I'd prefer to play it. Problem is, while this would have saved a few bets, it wouldn't have won any of these hands, or the hundreds of others like it I get into, and it directly contradicts Ed's "you guys fold too much" and the constant "bet! raise! check/raise!" that I see in hand posts. Against tight players, this either works or it tells me to fold. Loose players, though, play it the same no matter what they have. Do I bet/raise assuming they're always bluffing, or do I check/call/fold assuming they always have it?

Everyone keeps telling me that it's these loose players I want, that's where the money is. So I bought PokerAce and started seeking them out, and my results, already marginal, plummeted.
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  #26  
Old 12-08-2005, 04:57 PM
Guthrie Guthrie is offline
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Default Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

Thanks. I'll try to find someone.
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  #27  
Old 12-08-2005, 05:01 PM
Guthrie Guthrie is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 471
Default Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]
when i read through your hands i agreed with everything entity said.

the KJ/QT/QQ/TT hands all show, imo, that you make enough postflop mistakes to be a losing player. i do not think it's just variance. you have a formulaic preflop game and you do not play well postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm certain it's not just variance. I think it's leaks magnified by variance which masks the leaks. It also doesn't help that I get wildly conflicting advice on what the leaks are and how to fix them.
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  #28  
Old 12-08-2005, 05:16 PM
Entity Entity is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: joining the U.S.S smallstakes
Posts: 3,786
Default Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the reply, and I agree with your comments. That's the way I'd prefer to play it. Problem is, while this would have saved a few bets, it wouldn't have won any of these hands, or the hundreds of others like it I get into, and it directly contradicts Ed's "you guys fold too much" and the constant "bet! raise! check/raise!" that I see in hand posts. Against tight players, this either works or it tells me to fold. Loose players, though, play it the same no matter what they have. Do I bet/raise assuming they're always bluffing, or do I check/call/fold assuming they always have it?

Everyone keeps telling me that it's these loose players I want, that's where the money is. So I bought PokerAce and started seeking them out, and my results, already marginal, plummeted.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really need a coach. You're not getting it but I don't think what you aren't getting can be explained in a single post or two. Each of your hands contained errors in play, and the fact that you say "well, I wouldn't have won anyway" doesn't bode well for the way you approach poker. The game isn't an all or nothing approach; it's about taking marginal edges and pushing them, and over time, contributing them to your winrate. Raising the turn to protect your hand in a big pot won't always help you win, but it will add a fraction of a bet to your winrate each time you do it correctly. Added up, all of these decisions contribute to a winning playing style and result.

Finally, nothing I posted contradicts with Ed's advice from his books, posts, or otherwise. It's very likely the unfortunate case that you're misapplying the advice, but to figure out specifically where or why or how, you may need to either devote yourself to understanding poker, or hire a teacher/coach to help you along with the process. I hear Joe Tall is quite good, though I don't knokw if he's still doing lessons.

It's going to be a long road and it's going to require work. Best of luck to you.

Rob
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  #29  
Old 12-08-2005, 05:26 PM
uuDevil uuDevil is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Remembering P. Tillman
Posts: 246
Default Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

[ QUOTE ]
...any of these hands.... directly contradicts.... constant.... either ... or.... same no matter what.... always bluffing....always have it? Everyone....

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you read King Yao's book, Weighing the Odds in Hold'em Poker? It might help to add some shades of gray to your thinking.

I'm glad you made these posts since I have suffered similar frustrations and have similar problems with my play, though perhaps not so extreme.

I agreed with most of Entity's comments on your hands. I thought you made some bad calls. Hand 3 is an exception-- I probably would have played the same as you did. On the flop I'd bet out believing I probably have the best hand. I'd call down after the flop raise and try for the C/R on the river if I thought he was more than 50% likely to bet.
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  #30  
Old 12-08-2005, 05:42 PM
Guthrie Guthrie is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 471
Default Re: Okay, Ed, I raised.

I just got King Yao's book, but haven't read it yet. I will.
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