Pocket Tens, Beaten twice

#1 12-19-2005, 11:24 AM

First Hand, villain is the ideal player, 43/3/.4 (still small hand sample though). Dangerous flop, I bet thinking it was better than check/call. Third club on turn, I checked behind, and with a blank on river led out again. Lost to a very unexpected KK. I lose no matter what here, but was there a better way to play this.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
[color=#666666]2 folds, UTG+2 calls, [color=#666666]2 folds, [color=#CC3333]Hero raises, [color=#666666]3 folds, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](3 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero bets, BB folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (4.20 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.20 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)
UTG+2 checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero bets, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 6.20 BB

Second hand, villain is 24/9/1.4 over 600 hands, also usually bets out on the flop if he hits his hand. Since villain 3 bet and with K on the flop, I felt with his range of hands (TT+, AK, maybe AQ), there wasn't much I was ahead of, so I just called down. He showed JJ at the end, so I don't think any aggression on my part would have changed the outcome, but I know we shouldn't be results orientated so is there a better line here.
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, [color=#666666]2 folds, [color=#CC3333]Hero raises, [color=#666666]2 folds, [color=#CC3333]Button 3-bets, [color=#666666]2 folds, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)
Hero checks, [color=#CC3333]Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.20 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (5.20 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)
Hero checks, [color=#CC3333]Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.20 BB

Nick C · #2 12-19-2005, 11:57 AM

Hand 1: Well, that flop sucks for your hand. While I was betting it, I'd probably tell myself that was the last bet I was putting in unimproved. (I might toss in a call on the river, though, if the turn checked through, BB bet, and UTG folded.)

I think the turn check behind is fine. And I'd probably forget what I told myself earlier and bet the river when UTG checked to me yet again, but I don't think it's a good idea, unless he's going to call down playing the board. You lose to any ace-rag, and the only hands you beat that aren't playing the board are worse pocket pairs.

Hand 2: Since you think AQ is only a maybe in Villain's range, I think you should probably just check-fold the flop. You're a big underdog to the AA-TT, AK-AQ range you gave even if we give AQ its full 16 combos (AA-JJ and AK is 33 combos).

However, if we toss in hands like 99-88 as possibilities on the flop (and Villain's 9-percent PFR number suggests to me that maybe we should), then our chances are a little better. And maybe we don't need to discount AQ too much.

In any case, you make it sound like Villain doesn't push hard when he misses. I think something to consider is check-calling the flop (he will at least auto-bet AQ after his preflop 3-bet, won't he?) and then check-folding the turn unimproved if he actually bets again. (I'm counting a turned 10-high flush draw as improvement, though.)

Which, in effect, is what you did. I think you probably should have folded the turn if Villain bet, though. You don't describe him as being very aggressive, and his postflop numbers aren't all that aggressive either.

I'm not sure what's best on the river. I guess I probably would have called, hoping Villain had been encouraged by my series of checks to try to buy the pot on the river with AQ.

Pharity · #3 12-19-2005, 12:01 PM

Hand1:
Since he checked the river after the turn were checked through a bet is good. But the question is whether it is good to check the turn. I always look at some numbers in PA to determine that. What is his fold to flop bet, whats his WSD, is his river agression very high? Because if you check the turn you must be very confident he will not bluff you at the river to be able to fold there. It takes a very passive player to be sure of that IMO. And if you plan to call the river bet you are most of the time better off to bet the turn and check the river instead.

Hand2:
If that is his range, why did you call the flop bet? If you dont think its wider than that you should just c/f the flop. Against some players you may be able to fold QQ or JJ but these are rare.

Nick Royale · #4 12-19-2005, 03:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And if you plan to call the river bet you are most of the time better off to bet the turn and check the river instead.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's fair to say this only applies when we're able to fold to a check/raise, which we're not. I like the turn check.

#5 12-19-2005, 04:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Hand2:
If that is his range, why did you call the flop bet? If you dont think its wider than that you should just c/f the flop. Against some players you may be able to fold QQ or JJ but these are rare.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is one of those cases where I didn't believe my own convictions strongly enough. It's part of the reason I posted the hand because it made me feel like I was getting too tied to pkt pairs and just spewing a bit