I cost myself this hand

[bottomset]

if he has KK, KT, TT, 55 basically he'll never fold and there isn't anything you can do to change that

if he had one of the above hands he let you off easy

[DRD66]

You know, the CC looked weird to me, so I checked the HH again. This was my 2nd hand at the table, and the first hand I rivered a 1-card flush to beat villian's 2-pr (getting proper odds all the way). I must've figured his raise to be "playing catch up" and made a loose pf call.

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Where do you think you "cost" yourself this hand?


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The turn. Lots of poster's mention the turn. Think about range of villian's hands here.

[gharp]

Seems to be a lot of different opinions on this hand. I'll put in my votes for:

- I'm folding this preflop -- you're out of position at a full table where you're going to have 4 players total at best. Stick a cold-caller or two in there and I'll probably come along.
- Check-raise or check-call the flop, don't lead out. I think your decision here depends on whether you consider the pot big on the flop. If you do, then check-raise. If not, then check-call. (I'd check-call)
- Without a read that he's aggressive enough to bet, I'd probably just bet the turn. A lot of players freeze up when they see that third flush card. You're play on the flop would influence this too (ie, if you check-raised you should be more likely to lead out).
- River's fine.

[Swax]

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Where do you think you "cost" yourself this hand?


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The turn. Lots of poster's mention the turn. Think about range of villian's hands here.

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Right - villain's play definitely indicates that he may have been trying to bait you with a flopped 2 pair or set, but even so, how do you think it would have played out if you led the turn? Since there's almost no way he's folding a set, I'm assuming that perhaps he had 2-pair, KT or something, and you're thinking that if the turn action went bet/raise/3-bet that villain might lay KT down? I suppose that's possible but I doubt it. Not at .5/1 especially.

[Obliky]

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I think i prefer c/r the flop and leading the turn, you have a moderate made hand and a good draw to a probable best hand.

Checkraising also has the advantage of trapping UTG+2 for 2 bets, and it looks stronger [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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C/R the flop drives UTG+2 out. Leading out is much better.

EDIT: Hey sweet, I have 1000 posts! Damn, I spend way too much time here. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

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Congrats on the 1000 posts [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Could you explain a bit more why a c/r isnt a good idea.. i would be checkraising here to get UTG+2 to fold, and also to represent strength to MP3 who may or may not have us beaten.
Whilst its unlikely UTG+2 would fold a hand that already has us beat (though he may fold something like QT which would be nice..or maybe even K2 and the like) he is likely to fold overcard/s to our split Ts.

I keep looking back at the flop and all i see is 'Checkraise!'.

[deception5]

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You know, the CC looked weird to me, so I checked the HH again. This was my 2nd hand at the table, and the first hand I rivered a 1-card flush to beat villian's 2-pr (getting proper odds all the way). I must've figured his raise to be "playing catch up" and made a loose pf call.

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Where do you think you "cost" yourself this hand?


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The turn. Lots of poster's mention the turn. Think about range of villian's hands here.

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If villian didn't fold to a c/r there's no way he's folding to a bet.

[bozlax]

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Checkraising also has the advantage of trapping UTG+2 for 2 bets, and it looks stronger [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

The only way you're trapping UTG+2 for any bets is by betting, having him call and having the PFR raise. Check-raising faces him with 2 cold, it doesn't trap him for 2.

[Obliky]

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Checkraising also has the advantage of trapping UTG+2 for 2 bets, and it looks stronger [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

The only way you're trapping UTG+2 for any bets is by betting, having him call and having the PFR raise. Check-raising faces him with 2 cold, it doesn't trap him for 2.

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By trap i mean that he is faced with 2 bets cold and has to fold. It seems that everyone else is in favour of keeping UTG+2 in the hand so my logic must be off on this one, i assume the consensus is that we have a strong enough hand to just value bet as opposed to trying to protect?

[bozlax]

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Where do you think you "cost" yourself this hand?


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The turn. Lots of poster's mention the turn. Think about range of villian's hands here.

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Ok. I've thought about it. Since it's obvious you lost here to a full house, Villan either had two-pair or a set on the turn. If you bet out, he's at least calling, and he might raise-call. He's not ever, never, no-way-no-how, not-in-a-million-years-probably-even-if-he-knew-you-had-a-made-flush folding to one bet (especially given the added information that you'd rivered him on the previous hand...he's pissed). What's more, if he has a set he's correct to not fold since he has ten outs to a boat. (I suppose it's possible you lost to the ace-high flush, but then it's even less likely that you're going to fold him on the turn.)

Let it go. You played fine.

[DRD66]

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thinking that if the turn action went bet/raise/3-bet that villain might lay KT down? I suppose that's possible but I doubt it. Not at .5/1 especially.

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If villian didn't fold to a c/r there's no way he's folding to a bet.

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I agree he's not folding, but do think I should have lead the turn. I replayed the hand in PT with the pot odds window on (been finding that helpful lately). If I had bet into the turn, he'd need 8 outs to call. This makes a set an iffy call, and calling with 2pr -EV. By my c/r-ing the turn, he needed only 6 outs to call, which he did correctly. He showed K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for the boat. Doubt he would have folded to a turn bet, but by c/r-ing I gave him proper odds to suck out on me.

This is why I'm not sure how big a leak this is. I think I need work on late play (WSD,W$SD, AG numbers kinda weird). And I seem to lose a lot of rivers, but everyone feels that way. Comments on finding and fixing late game leaks appreciated.