Continuation bets

Guthrie · #1 12-01-2005, 08:08 PM

I hate continuation bets against loose players. Against tight players they either work or they don't, but at least I have some idea where I am, and there is at least reason to believe that they might be +EV. Loose players may be calling, or raising, because they hit the flop, or just for the fun of it.

In both these cases I don't really have enough outs to continue, but does the villain, and is there any way to tell?

Should I just go back to continuation betting against tight opponents and check/folding against the loose ones? Or is that too weak/tight?

Villain (button) is 35.4/0.2. I doubt he'll fold, but I lead the flop anyway. Fire again on the turn or check it down?

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, 5 folds, Hero (poster) raises, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, Button calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero ?

Villain (button) is 58.7/9.52. Again, I feel the need to lead the flop, but now what? Is there any reason to call the raise? Was there even any reason to lead the flop?

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
4 folds, Hero raises, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, CO folds, Button raises, Hero ?

wyrd · #2 12-01-2005, 08:25 PM

Hand 1:

You only have 1 overcard on a somewhat coordinated flop, and the flush draw possiblity could remove another out making you drawing very thin.

I'd just go ahead and check/fold the flop. I'd definitely check/fold the turn.

Hand 2:

See hand one.

EDIT:
Your position in hand 2 (acting first) is horrible, which is even more reason to check/fold. I'd definitely fold to a raise.

nomadtla · #3 12-01-2005, 08:30 PM

Wow good post I have so much trouble with this as well.

I think in hand 1 I c/f the turn.

To offten I am betting all the way and being shown a passive J.

On hand 2 I soil myself and call planing to c/f the turn w/o an ace.

But as I said I suck at these siuations and am looking for others responses more then I think mine means anything.

DCWildcat · #4 12-01-2005, 08:35 PM

I think hand 1 is an easy bet/fold HU, I'm still probably doing it vs. 2 opponents.

Hand 2...bleh, I dunno. Fold?

wyrd · #5 12-01-2005, 08:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But as I said I suck at these siuations and am looking for others responses more then I think mine means anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I look at it, is I calculate pot odds on the flop. If I don't have odds to call, I certainly shouldn't be raising.

I think we need to remind ourselves two things;

- Overcards are drawing hands, and weak drawing hands at that.
- In small stakes (or micro), hardly anyone folds for one bet, so we need to bluff less often, and only semi-bluff if getting correct odds to do so.

nomadtla · #6 12-01-2005, 08:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But as I said I suck at these siuations and am looking for others responses more then I think mine means anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I look at it, is I calculate pot odds on the flop. If I don't have odds to call, I certainly shouldn't be raising.

I think we need to remind ourselves two things;

- Overcards are drawing hands, and weak drawing hands at that.
- In small stakes (or micro), hardly anyone folds for one bet, so we need to bluff less often, and only semi-bluff if getting correct odds to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if we allways c/f with unimproved overs we give our hand away to offten (when we contiue betting overpairs or overs that hit) and beg people to bluff at us on the flop (when we don't hit) there in lies the enigma of the continuation bet.

wyrd · #7 12-01-2005, 08:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But as I said I suck at these siuations and am looking for others responses more then I think mine means anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I look at it, is I calculate pot odds on the flop. If I don't have odds to call, I certainly shouldn't be raising.

I think we need to remind ourselves two things;

- Overcards are drawing hands, and weak drawing hands at that.
- In small stakes (or micro), hardly anyone folds for one bet, so we need to bluff less often, and only semi-bluff if getting correct odds to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if we allways c/f with unimproved overs we give our hand away to offten (when we contiue betting overpairs or overs that hit) and beg people to bluff at us on the flop (when we don't hit) there in lies the enigma of the continuation bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he had two overcards, then sure a continuation bet is fine. But he has one overcard, and more likely than not he's going to get callers. So why put money in the pot with a hand that has very little chance of winning?

Also, most micro and small stakes players aren't even paying attention to what you're doing. So why bother bluffing away your money?

However, YOU should be watching. If you get raised by a known bluffer, then sure you could probably go ahead and call if you think your A-high is good, assuming you're heads up. Even so, I don't see the value in betting into multiple opponents.

Guthrie · #8 12-01-2005, 09:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
However, YOU should be watching. If you get raised by a known bluffer, then sure you could probably go ahead and call if you think your A-high is good, assuming you're heads up. Even so, I don't see the value in betting into multiple opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
I seem to have some success continuation betting into up to two tight players, but almost none into any number of loose ones. Maybe the best strategy is continue betting into tight ones at least some of the time to prevent them from taking shots, but check/fold into the loose ones and let them have their small pots unless there are enough outs and chips to justify it.

wyrd · #9 12-01-2005, 09:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, YOU should be watching. If you get raised by a known bluffer, then sure you could probably go ahead and call if you think your A-high is good, assuming you're heads up. Even so, I don't see the value in betting into multiple opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
I seem to have some success continuation betting into up to two tight players, but almost none into any number of loose ones. Maybe the best strategy is continue betting into tight ones at least some of the time to prevent them from taking shots, but check/fold into the loose ones and let them have their small pots unless there are enough outs and chips to justify it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems reasonable to me. It follows what people say; bluff more at tight players, less at loose players.

JackThree · #10 12-01-2005, 09:45 PM

c/f the flop in the first hand, there's a J and a 9 and two clubs on board and you have no club