Let’s take a few minutes on the couch.

[RJT]

This subject arose in another thread. It was claimed that psychological (I’ll call P for brevity) problems is one cause for many (most, all?) believers to take the path they do. This sounds good, but I see no proof for such a statement. In fact, I can certainly state the same for the atheists. Of course, one can talk about P problems for just about anything (and Freud pretty much does, yes?) But, that wasn’t the context. The point was made that folk come to believe, because they have P issues.

I can very easily see that Religion can cause P problems and perhaps often does. Guilt is an obvious, albeit relatively minor, example and suicide-bombers are an extreme case. But, I think people believing or arriving at their belief because they have P issues, as a blanket statement, is a leap. (Any more than marrying a red head versus a brunette is caused by P issues.) Indeed, I see evidence here on the forum that suggests that atheists often come to their decisions because of P issues:

Has anyone else noticed some of the bitterness some Atheists have with Religion? This seems to be the case with many former Christians. It seems something happened to them; whether it was their mother force-feeding Religion to them or perhaps some nun in kindergarten cracked their hands with a ruler. Anyway, it seems someone did some damage along the way. The cause is by someone, not Religion, per se.

So, the bottom line question is this: Do folk generally come to their beliefs out of some P need (to feel all warm and fuzzy, as Dr. kidluckee likes to say) any more than atheists arrive at their “conclusions” because of P reasons (e.g. Ego.)?

I sincerely think you are misinterpreting they tyupical skeptic's bitterness toward believers. Yes, there are some of us who were slapped too hard with a ruler in Catholic school (my stepfather for instance) however I am not one of those.

I think the majority of us (picking up the skeptic mantle) are upset that religions and their followers believe they know what is just, moral, and claim to know how others should live their lives using the Ultimate Authority as their shield. Not only do us skeptics see these believers as self-deluding, we also feel they meddle too much in our lives. If i want to screw someone of the same sex, swear, use contraception, or whatever, I dont want some nitwit who reads at the level of a 10 year old preaching to me about hell.
there's the bitterness.
If it makes you feel better, fine. Obviously not all believers are meddlers. Just a lot of them.

-g

[Jeff V]

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Has anyone else noticed some of the bitterness some Atheists have with Religion?

[/ QUOTE ]

Noooooooo. (can you type sarcasticaly?) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I would like to know how many non-believers have father issues as well, but that's another thread.

[ QUOTE ]
So, the bottom line question is this: Do folk generally come to their beliefs out of some P need (to feel all warm and fuzzy, as Dr. kidluckee likes to say) any more than atheists arrive at their “conclusions” because of P reasons (e.g. Ego.)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have to sat no. No doubt that some do, but I don't think it's any more than others come to different views.

Also I really think that a P need can't/won't sustain faith. It may get you there, but sooner or later that need will arise again.

[NotReady]

[ QUOTE ]

So, the bottom line question is this: Do folk generally come to their beliefs out of some P need (to feel all warm and fuzzy, as Dr. kidluckee likes to say) any more than atheists arrive at their “conclusions” because of P reasons (e.g. Ego.)?


[/ QUOTE ]

Our real motives are not always obvious even to ourselves. When I was a teen and many years before I became a Christian someone asked me if I hated everyone. I had no clue what she meant and didn't think about it further, though I never forgot the question. It was only after becoming a Christian, and then gradually over the course of decades, that I began to fully understand what prompted her question and how right she had been.

[Jeff V]

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I dont want some nitwit who reads at the level of a 10 year old preaching to me about hell.

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Doing your part to squash those stereotypes? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] kidding

[Lestat]

<font color="red">Has anyone else noticed some of the bitterness some Atheists have with Religion? </font>

Actually I think the opposite is true. I am amazed at the patience many atheists show for believers. I wonder how much patience you would exhibit with someone who insisted to you that pixies are real? And not just any pixie, but their exact version of one!

What if I told you that the best way to lead your life was according to the zodiac? There are all kinds of reasons to believe in astrology! Let's see how much patience you'll have with me while I insist to you that it is all very sensible. I know you won't dismiss my beliefs as being unintelligent. So start proving to me why astrology and pixies have no merit.

[purnell]

The bitterness on this board is an expression of youthful angst, IMO. As has been said before here, most people don't choose their religion, instead it is given to them by their family. That kinda throws the P issue theory out the window.

I want you guys to know that regardless of what I think of your beliefs, I respect and value your right to hold them. I have a problem with fanaticism, not religion. That is why I usually make my "arguments" in the form of a question. I want you to think, because independent thinking (again IMO) is the antidote for fanaticism.

I thought it might help to list some reasons aetheists (me) might be very frustrated by people treating religion as truth. Only a few off the top of my head, lots more have occured over a lifetime.

1) Using religion as a basis for decision making.

Can you imagin how frustating it is to try to discus something logically with someone who cites a fictional book? I'm not talking about the existence of God, I mean real issues such as politics and morality. This is one reason why I deem it a reasonable use of my time to try to talk people out of religion first.

2) Actually, thinking about it now, I think they are all variants of (1). But any situations where people use religion to get a holiday from work, be fussy with food, claim ownership of a country, etc etc.

Our food in university halls was awful. We got a choice of 2 dishes (and a vegetarian dish). Muslim students got a choice of 5 dishes (the 3 above +2 well prepared halaal curries). Non-muslims were not allowed those choices. So they had more choice and ate better than we did. In England.

That kind of bias throughout life has built up in me a resentment of our cultural acceptance of religious B.S.

[hmkpoker]

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Do folk generally come to their beliefs out of some P need (to feel all warm and fuzzy, as Dr. kidluckee likes to say)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say so.

Consider this: Take a smart, healthy young person. There's an awful lot he or she can do with his life. There are some phenomenal pleasures to be experienced, be they athletics, partying, love, art, music, learning, games, etc. etc. etc. There's also a darn lot of personally fulfilling career things someone can experience, and a lot that one person can do to help society, and to help others live a higher quality of life.

Now suppose you were taught from a young age that this amazing experience that we call life DOESN'T MATTER...because afterward you go to some magical world that's infinitely better if you do this one silly thing that takes absolutely no effort and even the most useless person in the world can do, and if you don't do it, you are punished infinitely.

So now, since life doesn't matter, all there is to do is to believe that a dead carpenter came back to life, and maybe try and get some other people to do the same thing.

*believes*

w00t. I believe in a dead carpenter. Wow. I've just accomplished more than I can ever do through hard work, compassion and academic passion.

I think this is a pretty good way to get the losers of society to feel like they've done something worthwhile, and honestly, it's pretty demotivating.

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Do folk generally come to their beliefs out of some P need (to feel all warm and fuzzy, as Dr. kidluckee likes to say)

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly don't recall ever once saying that.