Kind of hands I frequently mess up on

Allinlife · #1 09-03-2005, 01:59 AM

Villan is pretty LAG 40/25

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Button ($1001)
SB ($1117.50)
Hero ($1000)
UTG ($1815.85)
MP ($865.44)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $5.
UTG raises to $35, 3 folds, Hero calls $25.

Flop: ($75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $73, Hero raises to $200, UTG calls $127.

Turn: ($475) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

River: ($475) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $250, UTG calls $250.

Final Pot: $975

could anyone give me better lines?

I check raised the flop because he could c-bet there with any 2 cards and I thought that there was a decent chance I was ahead, also I didn't really want to take a turn because of many overcard/flush scarecards.

River I felt that he was loose enough for me to value/block/bluff there with 8's.

I'd love to hear some better lines to take with mediocre hands like 2nd pp or MPGK vs lags(pfr) oop vs someone that would always c-bet.

flame away

xorbie · #2 09-03-2005, 02:05 AM

This looks like a pretty terrible flop to checkraise. There's no way he's folding a K or AA, and he might not even fold QQ or JJ. On top of that, he could easily have a pair of :diammond: himself, in which case he's not going anywhere.

mgsimpleton · #3 09-03-2005, 02:40 AM

I hate check raising in that spot because if villain does have a diamond draw, you will have NO idea what to do on the turn... fire again or give up? It's tough in general being OOP with a marginal hand and that's the main problem, the turn is very difficult in that spot.

Some ways to combat that: With a loose PFR OOP and a marginal hand like 88, consider reraising preflop. Hey, you're likely ahead... and they'll be less inclined to call with whatever crap they have. In that situation, when you fire the flop you will often take it down. Of course it will be a similar situation on the turn, but as the aggressor the whole time, it will be easier to control the hand.

Consider leading the flop. If he raises you, believe him that he has a K or just live to fight another day. If he calls, fire again on the turn and check the river (many people will not bluff this missed draw because it is the classic "check and call a missed draw so if they do have a made hand they will check behind) and on those two streets it will have cost you just about the same as your flop check raise. Of course, its important that you are also leading your sets (and this board is inherently less scary for a potential two pair... basically this board just sucks with a mediocre hand oop against an aggro/tricky opponent).

#4 09-03-2005, 02:44 AM

I hate loose, aggro players and try not to get involved with them without a hand. Pocket eights are good shorthanded, I would have raised preflop to let him know I have a hand I'm willing to play. If you are only playing strong hands against loose aggro players, you will either bust them, or they'll give you respect when you play-back at them.
What was the final result? Why such a large pre-flop bet, was 5x the big blind a standard opening bet in that game?

tdarko · #5 09-03-2005, 02:47 AM

would it be terrible to make your move on the turn? or are the stacks not deep enough to call, check/raise?

mgsimpleton · #6 09-03-2005, 02:49 AM

if you call, check/raise, then you're just bluffing. what's the point of that? plus yes that would be about 1/2 of your stack.

tdarko · #7 09-03-2005, 02:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
if you call, check/raise, then you're just bluffing. what's the point of that?

[/ QUOTE ]
i agree and this is how i think too, i just ran into a hand similiar to this today and was just seeing if you thought there was any merit in calling the flop to try and take it later.

long story short i had mid-pair, flop missed me with one over and i made the mentioned play at him and got him to lay down top pair marginal kicker...but afterwards i was thinking how if i didn't have a deep stack then this play is suicide if he plays back at you.

JMP300z · #8 09-03-2005, 11:15 AM

This thread has some pretty bad advice.

Possibly stemming from the hand in PL/NL poker (R and C) where they advocate reraising 99 and then potting the flop....this is all ok except that you might as well have 72o.

The correct way to play this has to do with the type of opponent and their predictability.

First put them on a hand range...Raising UTG are they really that loose? How many barrels will they fire? How often do you check raise or check fold? How often do you slow play? Consider your image. You probably dont have too much equity vs their hand range.

Usually I just check call these flop. I kind of dont like doing it however when there is a draw on board b/c they are more likely to fire big if you check the turn again.

There is no good way to get a lot of value AND protect a hand like 88 in this spot. Especially if your opponent is very unpredictable. The good news is, youre not looking to play a gigantic pot here....there is no super urgent need to protect your hand. So you can afford to get passive. If youre not comfortable with this, why not look for a more comfortable spot? One w/ position etc.

Check calling and checking again depending on the turn usually works for me as I often play a wide range of hands passively out of position vs lags in six max. On the river i might bet and rep a missed flush draw if he will call me w/ A high but thats a rare spot and usually reserved for times where the opponent is also capable of bluffing w/ such a hand.

-JP

Edit: your river bet doesnt make much sense as anything except a bluff to try to get him to fold 99-QQ.

Allinlife · #9 09-04-2005, 12:47 AM

woohoo, thanks you all for the comments. so my check-raise was pretty horrible. thank you for suggesting 3 better lines lol. 3 bet pre, lead flop/turn and the c/c passive way.

I think it's pretty hard to debate which one is the best, you just gotta mix it up time to time, but I like the lead flop line the best because it seems to make the hand easiest to play with in contrast to the passive check-call lines (as they often do oop in NL).

btw, villan had JJ and it was g00t.

I'll post more digusting hands later [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img], ciao