Learning to think on the fly -- a test - Page 2

deucesevenoff · #11 12-10-2005, 07:11 PM

I think that a raise from each of these opponents will be likely to mean different things.

For opponent one, if we know that he is an aggressive thinking player than a raise does not necessarily mean we are beat. I think that if a tight player raises in a situation like this then he very well might be trying to do some sort of free card raise with a flush or straight draw. Also, if we always auto bet the flop after raising pre flop then he might just be trying to put a move on us. I think that many players with a hand like KK or 1010 would have re-raised us PF so I'm not all that worried about a set (wrong perhaps?) Against a player like this, I think a re-raise all in would be good to prevent him from getting a free turn. Like I said before, I think a raise by a thinking player in a situation like this is more likely to indicate some sort of draw rather than something like a set.

Against the second player, a raise would scare me much more. Since he very rarely raises, a raise in this spot could very well indicate a set. On the other hand, he could easily have something like KQ or KJ and be making a "value bet" thinking we are on a blind steal. I think against him, I call and re-evaluate on the turn. If the turn bricks I say we make a reasonably sized "donk bet" (say 1/2 the pot) into the guy and see how he reacts. If he calls then I think my hand is best, but if he pushes I'd have to seriously consider folding.

Against player number three, I think that he'll try to bluff his money off to me more often than not. I'll call the flop raise, call the turn bet and the inevitable river push.

Thanks for posting this hand Rococo, I think that using default "lines" is a serious flaw in my game. Interested to hear your critiques of these plays.

Godfather80 · #12 12-10-2005, 07:45 PM

paging Rococo, paging Rococo.

Are we gonna discuss this, because I'm interested.

Rococo · #13 12-10-2005, 07:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I normally post on the high stakes board, but I read this board occasionally, and I had a hand that I thought would be useful for others to evaluate.

Beginning players tend to think too much about "default" lines, often at the expense of hand reading. This can lead to VERY suboptimal play. Give me your thoughts on how you would handle the following situation.

Game is 10-20 NL, 4 handed. Villain in the BB has $2600. You have him covered.

Preflop

Folded to you in the SB. You make it $75 to go in the SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Villain calls.

Flop

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

How would you play the flop against the following players? What would you do if reraised? What is your plan if the turn is a brick? Assume in all cases that you have the image of an aggressive (but not crazy) player.

Scenario 1

Villain is generally tight preflop. He tends to reach a "decision point" early in hands and does not fold a made hand very often on the turn or the river unless the board is very scary. He is generally sensitive to pot odds, etc. He is capable of bluffing and playing aggressively if he senses weakness. He is a winning player.

Scenario 2

Villain is a weak, but not wild, player. He calls and folds too much on all streets, and does not raise frequently enough. He is not tricky.

Scenario 3

Villain is a big LAG. He has more guts than judgment. He plays too many hands. He bluffs too often and in bad spots, but he is good at picking off bluffs by opponents. He is capable of folding if he feels he is beat, but he is also capable of betting/raising all-in with the nuts, air, or something in between. He can be tricky at times and is difficult to put on a hand.

I will post the turn card later on and give everyone a chance to reevaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assume you bet the pot on the flop and Villain calls.

Pot size is now $480. You each have $2360 behind. Turn card is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Now what? One thing to consider is whether this card is a brick.

Godfather80 · #14 12-10-2005, 07:53 PM

are we gonna talk about the raise scenarios? I'd like to hear your opinions.

Rococo · #15 12-10-2005, 07:55 PM

Sure. I wanted to give others a chance to weigh in. I'll post my thoughts eventually, maybe tomorrow.

Godfather80 · #16 12-10-2005, 07:58 PM

I'm looking forward to it.

Godfather80 · #17 12-11-2005, 04:50 PM

bump.

GrunchCan · #18 12-11-2005, 04:51 PM

I've been meaning to contribute to this thread becasue I think it could become one of the best thrreads we've had recently. I just haven't had time to do it justice.

Godfather80 · #19 12-11-2005, 06:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Game is 10-20 NL, 4 handed. Villain in the BB has $2600. You have him covered.

Preflop

Folded to you in the SB. You make it $75 to go in the SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Villain calls.

Flop

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

How would you play the flop against the following players? What would you do if reraised? What is your plan if the turn is a brick? Assume in all cases that you have the image of an aggressive (but not crazy) player.

Scenario 1

Villain is generally tight preflop. He tends to reach a "decision point" early in hands and does not fold a made hand very often on the turn or the river unless the board is very scary. He is generally sensitive to pot odds, etc. He is capable of bluffing and playing aggressively if he senses weakness. He is a winning player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assume you bet the pot on the flop and Villain calls.

Pot size is now $480. You each have $2360 behind. Turn card is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Now what? One thing to consider is whether this card is a brick.

[/ QUOTE ]

The call of our flop bet by the Scenario 1 Villain doesn't worry me very much. He's hit something on the flop and is looking to take another card off.

His hand range does NOT include trips as KK and TT are unlikely both from preflop action and our hole cards. 33 probably would have raised the flop (plus, given the turn card, 33 is unlikely).

So, after Villain's flop call, Villain's hand range includes: flush draws - A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]; straight draws - any QJ; straight flush draws - Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (although, Villain probably would have raised with this on the flop) and J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]; and combo pair + draws - A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T, KQ[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (again though, Villain probably would have raised the flop with this holding).

I don't think this type of player would call with just a pair and no redraw on the flop because I think he'd probably raise or fold (he likes to "reach a decision point early").

The 3 on the turn is NOT really a worrisome card because so few hands in Villain's range are helped by a 3. The only hand that he might play preflop that contains a 3 is A3s. Given the flop, A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] probably would have raised. The only other hand that worries us with the 3 on the turn is a slowplayed A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A because villain now has a higher two pair, but this would be a very slowplayed AA.

Therefore, Hero needs to lead the turn because he very probably still has the best hand and in order to charge the potential draws that villain has. Hero should lead out for $400.

If Hero is raised, I'll start getting nervous about A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A.

teamdonkey · #20 12-11-2005, 06:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Assume you bet the pot on the flop and Villain calls.

Pot size is now $480. You each have $2360 behind. Turn card is 3 . Now what? One thing to consider is whether this card is a brick.

[/ QUOTE ]

obviously 10/20 is out of my league, but top 2 when you're four handed in a blind war is an absolute monster. The turn doesn't change that in my mind at all. The only things you're behind are a set (unlikely, that puts all 4 10s or Ks out there), quads (again unlikely), AA, or A3. #2 or #3 certainly could have A3, but i think they have weaker hands enough to take your chances here. In most cases i'm willing to play for my stack.

Scenario 1: good player thinks his top pair is good. I don't want to change his mind, bet 3/4 pot with a river plan of betting 1/2 pot and calling a push.

Scenario 2: weak player just called flop, which he's prone to do with both strong and marginal holdings. We are ahead the large majority of the time here, so bet out again... he'll most likely call with worse hands and call with better hands. Again 3/4 pot, and again 1/2 pot on the river but fold to a push.

scenario 3: i want to give this guy the opportunity to sense weakness and try to push me off the pot. 2/3 pot on the turn and a blocking bet on the river, calling a river push.

If raised on the turn by #2 im folding, by #3 i'm calling and check calling any river bet. if #1 raises the turn i'm not real sure what i'd do.... probably the same as #3.

Godfather: i really like your flop lines