3 betting with 22-66 at higher limits

[Paluka]

I've gone back to playing 30-60 and 100-200 on pokerstars a bit lately, along wiht 80-160 on UB. I've seen a lot of people 3 betting with small pairs preflop, and I'm not talking about the button 3 betting the cutoff. I'm saying I raise under the gun, and then some guy 3 bets me with 22 in a full game. I talked with El Diablo a bit about this yesterday, and now Nate tha Great has said a ton of smart stuff in some threads today that got me thinking more.
Mainstream 2+2 theory says you fold small pairs against early raisers. So I have a few questions:

a) is this just a breakevenish type play that some high-limit guys do to "mix it up"
b) if it is a winner, who is it good against and why is mainstream poker theory so wrong here?
c) what is the best way to punish the people who make this play?

[stoxtrader]

awesome post. let me do some thinking on this and attempt a thoughtful response.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

I am a big proponent of doing this given that there's a reasonable chance that I will get it HU with position agaisnt what i would feel is a predictable range of hands.

nate tha great and i have a history of doing this to each other, but i'm sure he can explain it better than i.

[sthief09]

yeah, and how bout you 3-betting my UTG raise from MP with 44 and me folding AQ on a QJT board to your stupid ass

[Chris Daddy Cool]

ok in my own attempt to answer your questions...

a) is this just a breakevenish type play that some high-limit guys do to "mix it up"

if not abused and done in right spots, i believe it is a marginally +EV play.

b) if it is a winner, who is it good against and why is mainstream poker theory so wrong here?

I wouldn't go as far as to say mainstream poker theory is "so wrong" in the sense that it's pretty EV-neutral and variance adding that it probably isn't worth doing. my theory is that it can work against tight predictable opponents. for example, say i see a typical 20/8 player raise in EP and its folded to me in the CO with 55. if i feel the blinds are reasonably tight i will 3-bet here more often than not. you will have a understanding on his range of hands here, AK-AT, KQ-KJ while he will not have a good grasp of your hands. also it adds to bluffing possibilities on the flop and you could get him to even fold a hand like TT on a A high flop. for the most part againgst typical raising hands, a poketpair will be a slight favorite since statisically speaking there are more big ace, broadway type combinations than big pocket pair combinations.

so in short i would advise doing this agaisnt tight predictable not too aggressive opponents or perhaps someone who you feel respects your play/image. (raising against a loose raiser is actually okay too since there is a greater chance your hand is better than his but it makes it harder to play because his aggression may push you off your hand postflop)

NOTE: it is very important if you do try to do this that you are able to make this a HU hand because there is nothing worse than playing a 4 handed pot with 33 for 3 bets.

c) what is the best way to punish the people who make this play?

punish them with aggression and put them to the test. however it sucks because you are out of posision and you won't always know what he has. in fact you really just have to conceede the pot to him in most instances on most flops if you have something like AJ or KQ and you get 3-bet and brick on the flop despite his history of 3-betting you with 77-22, there's also the greter risk of domination and an actual premium hand as well. but if you actually flop a made hand or a good draw i would push it harder against him than normal.

i would also suggest perhaps capping wih a wider range of hands as well agaisnt these types of players.

[1800GAMBLER]

This is just a blend of a ton of theories.

1. It's weight, somewhat, by hot and cold you are putting money in -EV. The obvious EV theory.

2. However, doing this with x,x isn't that far away from breakeven. You're risking about 2:1. Normal bluff theory

3. Then the lowball theory of the person who only opens with the best hand, a UTG raise either has a pair or high cards and by the flop you know exact which, and thus play perfect then.

4. Game theory, without this it wouldn't work, if utg knew the button would raise AA 22 AT and play perfect against it (something like calling the flop and betting any turn card) then it wouldn't show a profit.

So for it to work, in order you need 1. an opponent who doesn't know you will raise this hand and thus can't play accordindly 2. an a opponent who will drop hands pretty quickly so your bluff EV isn't far from breakeven yet made up to +EV since you can still win with a pair 3. An opponent who you have great control over postflop and wont mix things up with Ahigh 4. An opponent who you aren't totally effed against preflop, i.e. something who would only raise AA KK.

These reasons are why it only happens at high limits and isn't in book books.

The reason it only happens from the CO or button is because the play is so close that even if a few players still have cards the equity has gone.

[Luke]

Really good post Paluka. I'm sure the others like stox and Nate will smoke me with their responses, but I'm still going to offer some thoughts to the questions.


a) is this just a breakevenish type play that some high-limit guys do to "mix it up"

My guess is that there is an element of "mixing it up" but the good players are fairly selective in choosing when and against whom to make these 3-bets so that they are profitable.


b) if it is a winner, who is it good against and why is mainstream poker theory so wrong here?

I think it can be a winner if the original raiser is tight and fairly straightforward. By that I mean if they're not going to cap with a wider range than AA-JJ, AK, and there are going to a lot of checking and folding on the flop and turn with unimproved big cards or pocket pairs facing overcards, then this play might be a winner.

I think this 3-bet can also be profitable if the raiser is the type who is LAGish preflop but tightens up postflop to aggression. But against most loose players, it's going to be tough to make this play as they will be constantly making correct calls to their overcards postflop.


c) what is the best way to punish the people who make this play?

If they're not doing it very often, then I don't think there's a whole lot you can do or want to do to alter your strategy.

As you notice them doing this more frequently, I'd start checkraising a more liberally on both the flop and turn. To keep this strategy profitable, they're going to have to bet these hands down to the river to protect against overcards and this is where we need to extract some money.

Luke

[ggbman]

In my humble opinion, a move like this should only be done in certain circumstances. First of all, you have to be pretty sure that you will get heads up most of the time. Position is also important obviously, because if you do this from MP2, there is much more of a chance that someone will pick up a hand. The game your playing in must be pretty tight overall, because some players simply don't fold 88 on a K 10 3 flop. If you can't get people of medium pairs on these boards, your equity drops a lot. Also if it's a loose-passive game, it's probably better to encourage multi-way action and try hit your set. I think 3 betting can be profitable in some circumstances, but they are very situational and this should by no meands become a defualt line with small pairs.

gabe

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
i would also suggest perhaps capping wih a wider range of hands as well agaisnt these types of players.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like the obvious defense mechanism. I'm trying to de-program myself from making auto decisions about whether to cap or not preflop.

[goofball]

Me too. For about a week this was a very good play to make on party poker, people were giving a lot more respect to you if you open raised from teh CO and capped when the blind 3bet then if you just called the 3bet. Now it's gotten so everyone and their mother is making this play. As always, when you find yourself in the majority it's time to pause and reflect.

I've also noticed a lot of people not capping only their premium hands the last couple of days. I think the good thing to do for now is to move back to value capping. People won't believe you when you cap and might just actually giveyou more credit then you deserive if you just call the 3bet.