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Old 03-18-2004, 10:31 PM
DrPhysic DrPhysic is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: San Antonio, Tx
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Default 2+2 SNG Game Survey

2+2 SNG Survey

This is an open letter and survey to all SNG players over the past 10 weeks, and those who would like to play. We have basically not asked the players for input on the game since the first week of January, so it is probably time. We have had a gradual dropoff in participation over recent weeks as is not unexpected. Any new enterprise generates lots of enthusiasm initially. We would like to see the game return to it’s original enthusiasm. We have had input on PM from Tim Perkin, Stoneii, VinnyTheFish, AleoMagus, simon, and myself, to formulate this post and AleoMagus’ post on the new leaderboard.

Here is some of the input:
Looks fine to me.
Personally I think the way to increase the value of these is to do more analysis on the games, certainly over an extended period of time. Doing some hardcore analysis on how the winners are winning and how the losers are losing is going to make the game a bit more value added. At the moment the only reason to play is social, there is not really any analysis of hands going on. Remember to post it in the Zoo and MTT forums as well as 1TT - you will get some good feedback from the Zoo I expect, and MTT can put up with one last post about these SnGs surely.
Positive feedback thus far. Will post response later. Could not find him today.
Ok, Tim has looked at the new system and had some good suggestions for what to do if we start getting lots of players on a 2nd table. I'm going to make a post today describing the system and getting this off the ground
I do agree with all the questions. The only advice that we will get, that is not possible, is to create a password tourn. (and Vinny is right, at this time it is not possible.)
I think one of the major factors to consider when trying to explain the dropoff in numbers is that private tournaments are rife at the moment on 2+2. KotZ, HULA, HUSH, BoSS, Zoo vs SS vs Toons etc. It's difficult to be involved with everything, so that may be a potential reason. I don't think there is any way round this, but the SNGs are definitely worth persevering with.
As far the site these events are played at is concerned, Poker Stars seems like the best option right now. I know they don’t want to host these games as a private tournament, this may not be such a bad thing. Whilst we get some non 2+2ers in these SNGs, that is not so bad because they add to the games and some even start posting as a result - this is great to keep the 2+2 paymasters happy. These are my feelings on the subject, thanks for asking my opinion. Feel free to post any of these ideas on the boards if you feel they are relevant.
The one change I am going to make for now is scheduling. We have a Wednesday conflict with WPT. Some of you are watching, some are fishing, but either way we are losing players on Wednesday nights. Therefore, starting next week the schedule will be:

Thursday 9:30PM EST with the exception of:
Tuesday 9:30PM EST on any week that there is a KotZ game.

As of this week we will have a new scoring system which has been developed over several days, a drink or two, some yelling, and eventually a lot of accord that it is fair, is in the interest of the games, and fairly represents everybody except ByronKincaid, who will just have to win 5 more.

Starting this week, we will also have more help in making the games successful. Tim and Stoneii will be organizing the Euro game. Vinny and I will be organizing the US game, and AleoMagus and Simon will be posting the scoring. I want to thank Billy, Brad, Simon, Tim, and Vinny for their help and enthusiasm in working on rejuvenating the SNG games. We all want your help too!

We believe there is a community of poker players at 2+2 who enjoy playing together on an regular basis at a reasonable buy-in, in a fundamentally social setting. (Or as social as a bunch of competitive poker players get!) We would like to see that continue, but to do so it needs to be in a format that is in the best interests of the entire group, therefore, we want your ideas and answers.

Therefore I am going to ask some questions to which we would appreciate answers so we know how to provide you the best game. Responses on 1 Table Tournament Forum, Please.

1. What do we need to do to improve participation in the games? Including both the Tuesday “Euro” games in the afternoon US time and evening Euro time and the games in the evening US time.
2. How many missed last night’s game, or the week before in favor of the WPT on television? Is the schedule change above better? Do you have other ideas?
3. Was the Saturday $13+1 satellite to the Sunday $215 a good idea? Should we do it again? How often? 200+15 only? Or 500+30 also?
4. Would a time that is more conducive to both the European group and the US group be a better idea? Suggestions?
5. We will have a Leaderboard starting this week. It has had input from a number of people and we think it is a good system. Player input is welcomed.
6. Do the ideas, additions, and changes in this post help?

Anyone is welcome to respond to this survey. We would especially like feedback from the “SNG Regulars” who have participated in 3 or more of the previous games:

Alekhine8 (Land O Lakes),
Bluff1 (Salem),
Bozeman (Bozeman)
ByronKincaid (Carshalton),
ClaudioReyna (Webster),
ClemsonAce (Lexington),
Colgin (New York)
CrisBrown (Wesley Chapel),
d9090 (Chinese Camp ),
debaser (Buckingham),
HelmetSky (Ramat-Gan),
heyrocker (Chicago),
Hotrod0823 (Brookfield),
jedi333 (Oceanside),
jpg777 (Ballston Spa),
jwp22 (Gaithersburg),
KURN (Cranston),
lorinda (Coventry),
MobyDick (København),
napawino (Brandon),
NotMitch (Somerville),
ocean_461 (Tempe),
ohKanada (Leander),
Poker Jon (Chigwell),
pvl000 (Troy),
Rhonda B (New York City),
Ruddiger (Sammamish),
spike_tt (Swindon),
Stagemusic (Taylorville),
SteelBallsD (kerrville),
superleeds (Fairfield),
TheStrength (Penarth),
thomastem (Marengo),
wayabvpar (Bellevue),
Zorac (Memphis),

Games for 2+2 posters. Not sponsored by Two Plus Two Publishing.

AleoMagus, &
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Old 03-19-2004, 01:16 AM
ThaSaltCracka ThaSaltCracka is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2003
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Default Re: 2+2 SNG Game Survey

I am going to try to play in the weekly "US" game, now that I am done with school I should be able to make them all.
I think the time for the U.S. game is perfect, 6:30 pst gives us plenty of time to get home from work and play, and I hope it works for those on the eastcoast as well.

I don't have a problem with it being on wednesday, if that is when the "US" game is one, I watch TV while I play so it doesn't bother me.

As for the satelite game, it could be one of those things that may not be able to be a regular event. That could be one commitment to many, for myself, I can't commit to that every week, but I wouldn't mind playing in one every now and then.

I think the leaderboard is an awesome idea, I really think that will get people to play the SnG's more frequently. IMO, it will have a great impact on the consistency of the participants.

Props to those of you on here that are working really hard on making this a consistent game, I think only positives can come from a regular SnG game, so I am all for it.
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Old 03-19-2004, 08:34 AM
Stoneii Stoneii is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Co.Down, N.Ireland
Posts: 220
Default Re: 2+2 SNG Game Survey

I PM'ed Doc this am regarding the SnG discussion as follows:

Humble apologies, was playing a game last night and fully intended to post afterwards but step-daughter has been unwell and needed some fussing.

Anyways, I wasn't going to add anything surprising to your full post. I play the SnG games for the fun and to help tighten up my game. That's incentive enough in my book to keep playing, it's great to rub shoulders with those that have an equal passion for the game and greater ability.

Answering your questions one at a time:

1)I think that's one all the players should answer, my reason is as stated above, I learn and it only costs me $11 (fabulous value)
2)We will only get this broadcast in the UK probably in 2005 [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
3)Yes I still like this, even once/twice a month. Idea of posting full report from winner again adds to learning (and for just $14 every fortnight/month).
4)That's a toughie for all of us who have to earn a living in the workplace. Current time for Euro game suits me but I'm aware that's not the case for everyone. Again you're probably back at the weekend to get a time to suit all.
5)Think you guys have ironed this out, I've no problems with any idea that reaches everyone, and yes a rolling 10 weeks leaderboard sounds good (shows who's running hottest of late - BYRON!!)
6)Weekly tournie is good, it's not a huge investment in time or money. I quite like the fact that others may sneak in, if we get to a stage where we have nearer 50 participants then that to me would be the time to seek a private tournie.

Sorry for delay


Billy (stoneii)

[/ QUOTE ]
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Old 03-19-2004, 05:03 PM
jedi jedi is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 517
Default Re: 2+2 SNG Game Survey

I have been unable to make the last 2 or 3 SnGs due to reasons other than scheduling (internet being down, working overtime, etc.) but I do support the move to Thursdays for the reasons already mentioned.

The leaderboard is a good idea. Although I still think this is a social thing, knowing where everyone stands is a good indicator of skill and improvement. I think the improvement factor is a big deal for these forums. Bragging rights are good as well, and since the leaderboard doesn't carry any real prize with it, there's no reason for anyone to get uptight about it.

I still enjoy the game and the funny chat lines that go along with it, so I hope we can get the ball rolling again.
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Old 03-19-2004, 05:38 PM
Sheriff Fatman Sheriff Fatman is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 442
Default Re: 2+2 SNG Game Survey

I really enjoy these games as its a cheap way to play against some really good players and I view any kind of result as a significant achievement.

I'd like to play in more than I do but the Europe game is often right when I'm eating (would prefer a later start) and the US game is just too late on a Tuesday (the switch to Thursday might help with the 2.30am start as I only have to survive work until 1pm on the Friday).

I'm as guilty as anyone about posting hands. My suggestions would be that a separate hand discussion thread is started with every game to make this 'requirement' more visible and that each player should be 'encouraged' to pick one hand from their game and post it for discussion. It might be the hand they go out on, or just a hand that made them think hard.

Maybe we could encourage this by awarding leaderboard points to those who post hands or some sort of small incentive (token prize, tourney buy in, etc) to the player who contributes most over the year in this respect (based on a poll of the regular players, not on number of posts).

Other than that I wouldn't change much at all. These games are great fun but I would like to see more discussion arising than at present. I've learned much already and I'd have tremendous respect for many of the players I've seen. I'd love a bit more of an insight into how they're playing/reading me. I'd be happy to contribute my share to this process and I don't think that one hand each per event is too onerous a requirement. After all, the purpose of these games, I believe, was to stimulate discussion and provide a learning experience to all who participate.

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Old 03-20-2004, 03:36 AM
Bluff1 Bluff1 is offline
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Posts: 193
Default A show all Trny maybe?

I'm just throwing this idea out there to see what you guys think of it. I have been pondering the idea of a show all trny. Where every time some one has a chance they must show their hands and also if asked about their hands afterwards must tell the truth about it. I know the later is kinda of so so but still I think a show all trny would help everyones game a great deal. Maybe would could fit this in once a month because I know some wouldn't want to do it.
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Old 03-20-2004, 01:15 PM
Stoneii Stoneii is offline
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Default Re: A show all Trny maybe?


Not necessary in my case as some would argue they already know what I'm playin [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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Old 03-20-2004, 02:59 PM
t_perkin t_perkin is offline
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Default I like that idea (nm)

I like that idea
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Old 03-21-2004, 03:37 PM
AleoMagus AleoMagus is offline
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Default Re: 2+2 SNG Game Survey

This post is mostly a bump

But, while I am doing it, do the players of these sngs want to call our new ongoing leaderboard series anything.

I suppose the 2+2 sng series is sufficient, and the leaders would just be the euro and N.American series leaders.

Are there any other name suggestions? Is naming an ongoing series that will never really culminate in a finale a good idea at all?

I know in the past some humorous names were suggested for individual tourneys. Legs Open, etc...

Any thoughts
Brad S
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Old 03-21-2004, 03:40 PM
AleoMagus AleoMagus is offline
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Default Re: A show all Trny maybe?

I think this would be hard to implement because obviously there will be non-2+2 players who won't understand what is going on, and many players will just not want to do it.

I don't think it is a bad idea, but I'd just suggest making notes about any hands of interest and having kind of an 2+2 honour system where afterwards, when asked, you fess up.

I'd always tell the truth afterwards.

Brad S
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