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  #1  
Old 12-27-2005, 07:28 PM
DeadManJay DeadManJay is offline
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Default You make the call

10 handed 10/20 HE in a well-known Biloxi casino. Players are all dealt in, and action begins around the table preflop. Action gets to the BB who looks down to check his hole cards and finds that two cards have stuck together giving him 3 cards total. BB alerts the dealer who has no clue how to handle the situation, since there is already action on the table. The floor comes over to make the call. Whats the decision? Is the hand a misdeal? Is the blind dead money? Is it the BBs fault that he didn't realize he had 3 cards until it was his turn?
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  #2  
Old 12-27-2005, 07:54 PM
AngusThermopyle AngusThermopyle is offline
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Default Re: You make the call

Personally, I would randomly pick one of the three cards, expose it, and give it to the dealer as the burn card.

Action already, so no misdeal. BB has not acted on his hand (from your description...if he had acted on his hand "blind", then his hand is dead and money forfeited), so I would not punish him.
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  #3  
Old 12-27-2005, 07:55 PM
DeadManJay DeadManJay is offline
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Default Re: You make the call

Since no one wants to answer I'll go ahead and let you all know what happened. Floor decided that I should have noticed that I had 3 cards before the action, so my BB was ruled dead money. I didn't argue my case but I thought that the decision was a bit ridiculous. The two cards were stuck one on top of the other and I had my hand on top of them until it was my turn to act. I just think it was unfair to penalize me for a house mistake...
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  #4  
Old 12-27-2005, 08:26 PM
KenProspero KenProspero is offline
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Default Re: You make the call

The floor was correct.

Roberts Rules of Poker Section 3 Misdeals Rule 1(e)

"1. The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands. (If two players have acted in turn, the deal must be played to conclusion, as explained in rule #2) ....

"(e) An incorrect number of cards has been dealt to a player, except the top card may be dealt if it goes to the player in proper sequence."


Roberts Rules of Poker Section 3 Misdeals Rule 2

"2. Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands."
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  #5  
Old 12-27-2005, 08:37 PM
AngusThermopyle AngusThermopyle is offline
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Default Re: You make the call

So, first two players act very fast, call, call. Just as the dealer gives the Button two cards stuck together. Hand instantly dead?

Dealer made a mistake, so player has to pay the price.
Nice.
Don't forget to tip.

Oh, by the way. There is now one extra card dealt. Does the dealer burn before putting out the flop?

I think my solution is fair and in the spirit of the rules (including the fact that the flop is now "correct".
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  #6  
Old 12-27-2005, 08:42 PM
Randy_Refeld Randy_Refeld is offline
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Default Re: You make the call

It has fallen out of fashion, but I have seen rules that state it is a misdeal if either blind has the incorrect number of cards, regardless of how much action has occurred.
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  #7  
Old 12-27-2005, 08:43 PM
KenProspero KenProspero is offline
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Default Re: You make the call

[ QUOTE ]
So, first two players act very fast, call, call. Just as the dealer gives the Button two cards stuck together. Hand instantly dead?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I hear you, but that's not what the OP says happened. The floor always has the right to disregard the rules in the case of an injustice, and probably should in the case you describe.

However ... the case described seems to be exactly what was contemplated by the rule. I'm not even saying it's a good rule, just a rule right on point.

In other words -- regardless of when you look at your cards, as soon as they're dealt, check to make sure you've received the right amount of em.
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  #8  
Old 12-27-2005, 08:44 PM
Randy_Refeld Randy_Refeld is offline
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Default Re: You make the call

[ QUOTE ]
So, first two players act very fast, call, call. Just as the dealer gives the Button two cards stuck together. Hand instantly dead?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if it is writeen anywehre, but no action can occur until the the deal is complete. That is if you are UTG and act whiel the dealer is still dealing you do so at risk of a misdeal being declared.
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  #9  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:19 PM
Al_Capone_Junior Al_Capone_Junior is offline
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Default kick them all in the nuts, then sort them out later

There are several possible solutions here, but I think you have to go with some sort of solution that is within the spirit of fairness, more so than the exact interpretation of whatever rule you can dig up that might apply here.

If the big blind waited till his turn to act (i.e. look at his cards), the normal rule of "you've gotta have the correct number of cards, otherwise you're screwed, BITCH" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] doesn't necessarily apply. I don't look at my blind cards till it's my turn to act (in case I am offered a chop), so it doesn't seem so unreasonable for someone else to act in a similar fashion.

Now if you're going to declare a misdeal because of two cards stuck together, I don't mind, even if there's "significant action." However, if you're going to call the "significant action" clause into effect in this situation, you've gotta give some reasonable leeway to the big blind, since they've acted in a reasonable fashion, and were in and of themselves at no particular fault.

Damn, I sound like a friggin' half drunk Magoo who's posting in the friggin' afternoon again! I guess I need psandman to analyze my "lawyerisms" to see if they meet up to harvard/princeton standards! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Anyway, don't be a hardass here, use good judgement and common sense. It's an irregular situation that's not going to be EXACTLY covered by any particular rule/rulebook.

What would I do, now that I've totally avoided the whole subject with a bunch of legalese mumbo-jumbo? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I'd either declare it a total misdeal, regardless of action, or I'd allow the big blind some leeway, probably refunding their money and killing their hand (obviously the big blind cannot play their hand).

It would depend on the exact situation when I got to the table. As a floor, you've got to read the table and make your decision based not only on the purely techincal interpretation of the rule(s), but also on what you believe would be the fairest / most amicable way to resolve a particular situation. The exact same problem could have several possible correct solutions, depending on the lineup at the table at the time. Reading people is sometimes cruicial to finding the best possible solution to a given problem, particularly when there is no "exact" solution that's obvious and inarguable.

As for the burn card, obviously this is a PROBLEM. This is where the whole "generic universal solution" of KICK THEM ALL IN THE NUTS, AND SORT THEM OUT LATER comes into play. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

al
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  #10  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:23 PM
Al_Capone_Junior Al_Capone_Junior is offline
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Default Re: You make the call

Your decision is not unreasonable. I wouldn't personally go with it, but there's nothing unfair about it.

al
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