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  #21  
Old 07-20-2005, 07:00 PM
WebGuySteve WebGuySteve is offline
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Default Re: a 2+2 oddity...a postflop problem

so if we're pushing the flop, laying down the turn here when a harmless card falls is poor? I just think that gaining more info is better, maybe the stacks are too shallow, I dunno, I'm still not convinced it's a CLEAR push on the flop.
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  #22  
Old 07-20-2005, 07:09 PM
Irieguy Irieguy is offline
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Default Re: a 2+2 oddity...a postflop problem

[ QUOTE ]
... maybe the stacks are too shallow, I dunno, I'm still not convinced it's a CLEAR push on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are exactly right, the stacks are too shallow for any other play. In my opinion, it's a "clear" push. And you will lose sometimes.

Irieguy
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  #23  
Old 07-20-2005, 07:12 PM
me1tdown me1tdown is offline
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Default Re: a 2+2 oddity...a postflop problem

Forgive my confusion -- I'm living in $11 land, but the preflop action made me feel right at home:
UTG does a 3x raise and there are 5 calls?! I know the Gap concept is non-existent at the $11s, but say it ain't so where you're at.
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  #24  
Old 07-20-2005, 07:13 PM
WebGuySteve WebGuySteve is offline
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Default Re: a 2+2 oddity...a postflop problem

that sort of preflop action is very uncommon, the gap concept is usually in full force, which is why i was hesitent with that flop and getting action.
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  #25  
Old 07-20-2005, 07:17 PM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Default Re: a 2+2 oddity...a postflop problem

The call is pretty standard with 1000. 800 is iffy, if the guy had good Prophecy stats and seemed like a $33 pro I might actually fold here.

The flop: originally, I thought UTG was the bettor. I think a call is probably correct (in fact, if he is good, I would *fold*, because he is not betting into 5 people without a hand that at least ties you.)

Since someone else is betting, though, this can be AQ-QJ just as easily as 66/22 and there are many more combos of the former. You also have a billion people behind you and a flush draw on board (very different from just the 3 of you in the hand). You've got to push here.

Once you just call, the turn is read dependent but I would probably go broke. Good laydown.
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  #26  
Old 07-20-2005, 07:31 PM
SammyKid11 SammyKid11 is offline
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Default Re: a 2+2 oddity...a postflop problem

Well, I'm just now looking at the hand (haven't looked at previous replies)...

Why not raise the flop? Defines your hand, forces a draw to put in more money (there are two diamonds on board).

He hasn't played this hand in a way that says QQ, 66, or 22. I think most people don't necessarily bet out with their sets like that into a multiple player field -- they're usually looking to c/r or get their money in on the turn, IMO.

He hasn't played this hand in such a way that you can give him credit for AA or KK. Q6, Q2, 62 all seem very unlikely. I think you've gotta make a threatening raise on the flop and be prepared to go with this thing. I put him on KQ or QJ.
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  #27  
Old 07-20-2005, 08:04 PM
curtains curtains is offline
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Default Re: a 2+2 oddity...a postflop problem


You give your opponents too much respect!
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  #28  
Old 07-20-2005, 08:11 PM
WebGuySteve WebGuySteve is offline
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Default Re: a 2+2 oddity...a postflop problem

[ QUOTE ]

You give your opponents too much respect!

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe this is my problem.
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  #29  
Old 07-20-2005, 08:13 PM
WebGuySteve WebGuySteve is offline
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Default Re: a 2+2 oddity...a postflop problem

[ QUOTE ]

Why not raise the flop? Defines your hand, forces a draw to put in more money (there are two diamonds on board).


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't raise the flop because i felt like i could get more information on the turn to help me make a more accurate decision.
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  #30  
Old 07-20-2005, 08:21 PM
SammyKid11 SammyKid11 is offline
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Default Re: a 2+2 oddity...a postflop problem

So with 20% of your stack you made a play that was immediately -EV (calling, as compared to raising)...that allowed flush draws a cheap card, that didn't flesh out where you were...so that you could fold to a stronger bet (but still ultimately the same percentage of the pot) on the turn?

To me, that just sounds like you wasted 20% of your stack. But that's just me.

What did his turn bet tell you that his flop bet didn't?

Edit: I guess the turn bet wasn't the same percentage of the pot...it was more than double his last bet, but you had two flop callers...so it was actually a bet of slightly less percentage of the flop. My question still stands, though. What new information did you gain?
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