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  #321  
Old 11-23-2005, 04:56 PM
NLSoldier NLSoldier is offline
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Location: St. Cloud, MN
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Default Re: Physics graduate from Daryn\'s alma mater\'s answer

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I'm going to agree with goofball. According to the phrasing of the OP, the plane is not moving. It's not that the plane is stationary because the plane is like a car and thrust by its wheels, nor because it's physically impossible for the plane to move relative to the ground/air when on a conveyor belt, but rather, the plane is stationary because that's how the problem has been defined. If the plane moves forward any amount relative to the ground such that lifting off would become possible, the criteria laid out in the OP (wheels movement = conveyor movement) is no longer met.

This is not about aerospace engineering, rather so much as it is about reading comprehension (or more precisely, poor phrasing in the original post).

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I second this

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This is exactly correct, and as a side note, I'm sitting right next to NLSoldier, and when he saw this, he said "Don't worry, Pat will come back on and pwn him in a sec!"

Somone tell that donk he owes me 400$....I mean seriously, he just said "I wasn't going to make you pay anyway."

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NLsoldier owes you $400 because the situation is theoretically impossible.

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If the situation is theoretically impossible I think that would mean the bet is off. And I can maybe agree that based on the exact semantics of the original post, its theoretically impossible. But I think we all know what we are talking about.
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  #322  
Old 11-23-2005, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Physics graduate from Daryn\'s alma mater\'s answer

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I'm going to agree with goofball. According to the phrasing of the OP, the plane is not moving. It's not that the plane is stationary because the plane is like a car and thrust by its wheels, nor because it's physically impossible for the plane to move relative to the ground/air when on a conveyor belt, but rather, the plane is stationary because that's how the problem has been defined. If the plane moves forward any amount relative to the ground such that lifting off would become possible, the criteria laid out in the OP (wheels movement = conveyor movement) is no longer met.

This is not about aerospace engineering, rather so much as it is about reading comprehension (or more precisely, poor phrasing in the original post).

[/ QUOTE ]

I second this

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly correct, and as a side note, I'm sitting right next to NLSoldier, and when he saw this, he said "Don't worry, Pat will come back on and pwn him in a sec!"

Somone tell that donk he owes me 400$....I mean seriously, he just said "I wasn't going to make you pay anyway."

[/ QUOTE ]

NLsoldier owes you $400 because the situation is theoretically impossible.

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If the situation is theoretically impossible I think that would mean the bet is off. And I can maybe agree that based on the exact semantics of the original post, its theoretically impossible. But I think we all know what we are talking about.

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Well that rules out you winning the bet.

Seriously, I think we've decided that if the runway and plane are moving at the same speed, the plane doesn't take off.
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  #323  
Old 11-23-2005, 05:00 PM
NLSoldier NLSoldier is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Posts: 91
Default Re: Physics graduate from Daryn\'s alma mater\'s answer

It has been so awesome watching all the clowns in this thread line up and beg for their pwning from pat. Im sitting next to hooded4 and I keep begging him to make more posts so Pat can pwn him some more.
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  #324  
Old 11-23-2005, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: Physics graduate from Daryn\'s alma mater\'s answer

THE BET IS NOT OFF!!!! The situation is NOT impossible, build a huge treadmilland put a plane on it! IT WON'T TAKE OFF!!
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  #325  
Old 11-23-2005, 05:03 PM
Patrick del Poker Grande Patrick del Poker Grande is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8
Default Re: Physics graduate from Daryn\'s alma mater\'s answer

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I'm going to agree with goofball. According to the phrasing of the OP, the plane is not moving. It's not that the plane is stationary because the plane is like a car and thrust by its wheels, nor because it's physically impossible for the plane to move relative to the ground/air when on a conveyor belt, but rather, the plane is stationary because that's how the problem has been defined. If the plane moves forward any amount relative to the ground such that lifting off would become possible, the criteria laid out in the OP (wheels movement = conveyor movement) is no longer met.

This is not about aerospace engineering, rather so much as it is about reading comprehension (or more precisely, poor phrasing in the original post).

[/ QUOTE ]

I second this

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly correct, and as a side note, I'm sitting right next to NLSoldier, and when he saw this, he said "Don't worry, Pat will come back on and pwn him in a sec!"

Somone tell that donk he owes me 400$....I mean seriously, he just said "I wasn't going to make you pay anyway."

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If you guys can wait (possibly days - my schedule's tight), I'll come up with a full explanation of the whole thing, completely with pictures and everything. Don't get too excited, because it really isn't nearly as complicated as everyone's making it out to be. I really shouldn't even be looking at this right now, but I can't help it - I need to just shut my laptop down.
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  #326  
Old 11-23-2005, 05:03 PM
Sabrazack Sabrazack is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 312
Default Re: think about this...

So, if i understand this correctly. The runway is moving backwards at say 300km/h, this would mean the wheels, ie the plane is moving forwards at 300km/h. Isn't it really this simple? or am i missing something.
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  #327  
Old 11-23-2005, 05:03 PM
Patrick del Poker Grande Patrick del Poker Grande is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8
Default Re: Physics graduate from Daryn\'s alma mater\'s answer

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It has been so awesome watching all the clowns in this thread line up and beg for their pwning from pat. Im sitting next to hooded4 and I keep begging him to make more posts so Pat can pwn him some more.

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I won't let you down. Merry Christmas.
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  #328  
Old 11-23-2005, 05:05 PM
LAGmaniac LAGmaniac is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 18
Default Re: Physics graduate from Daryn\'s alma mater\'s answer

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sure they are - the conveyor velocity simply accelerates instantaneously with the wheel's tangential velocity.

but as Patrick said, these accelerations have absolutely nothing to do with the forward acceleration of the plane.

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But if there is any tangential velocity of the wheel with respect to the conveyor belt, doesn't that mean that they are operating at different speeds?

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Velocity at what point on the wheel? The only meaningful points in this context are the wheel center and where the wheel contacts the conveyor. The velocity at the wheel center is the same as the plane's velocity. The velocity where the wheel contacts the conveyor is the same as the conveyor and the velocity's magnitude varies linearly between these two points. In the general case, they're not the same.

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Well by this definition a stationary wheel is also moving at the same speed as the conveyor belt. (i.e. the velocity where the wheel contacts the conveyor is the same as the conveyor in that reference frame, 0.

If that's the case then the phrase "The runway moves in the opposite direction of the plane at the exact same speed as the plane's wheels", is more of a truism than a condition. This just states that the wheels won't slip on the runway.

It only makes sense as a condition if it refers to tangential velocity.
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  #329  
Old 11-23-2005, 05:05 PM
Patrick del Poker Grande Patrick del Poker Grande is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8
Default Re: Physics graduate from Daryn\'s alma mater\'s answer

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sure they are - the conveyor velocity simply accelerates instantaneously with the wheel's tangential velocity.

but as Patrick said, these accelerations have absolutely nothing to do with the forward acceleration of the plane.

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But if there is any tangential velocity of the wheel with respect to the conveyor belt, doesn't that mean that they are operating at different speeds?

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Velocity at what point on the wheel? The only meaningful points in this context are the wheel center and where the wheel contacts the conveyor. The velocity at the wheel center is the same as the plane's velocity. The velocity where the wheel contacts the conveyor is the same as the conveyor and the velocity's magnitude varies linearly between these two points. In the general case, they're not the same.

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Bro, you're claiming a car can travel 1 mile with respect to the ground while its wheels have only covered 3/4 mile.

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No. You are an absolute fool if you believe all the crap you've posted in this thread. Don't worry, though, I'll include this little concept in my fury.
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  #330  
Old 11-23-2005, 05:06 PM
BOTW BOTW is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 6
Default Re: Physics graduate from Daryn\'s alma mater\'s answer

What if we assume that the plane is at its air/ground take-off velocity and on the conveyor? Now we have lift=gravity. The plane is moving relative to the air/ground. Isn't this the same as the situation of a plane just taking off on a regular runway?

Edit: i.e. if we consider the earth as the conveyor, then this is just a regular plane taking off?
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