Waiting til the turn to protect my hand

beachbum · #1 08-12-2005, 09:11 PM

Was rereading SSHE the other day. Is this a good application of this concept? I was planning on raising a blank on the turn until the money card came.

Preflop reraiser shows proper aggression pre and postflop but is a bit too loose.

Party Poker (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, CO cold-calls, button folds, SB 3-bets, BB calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players) (12 SB)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players) (8 BB)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls, CO folds.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players) (11 BB)
SB bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, BB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot:

krishanleong · #2 08-12-2005, 10:36 PM

no it's horrible.

You can't protect your hand. Your position relative to the likely better makes that impossible.

Not raising the turn is really really bad. Imagine if Villian had A3. How much money would you leave on the table by waiting till the river?

Krishan

cmwck · #3 08-12-2005, 10:38 PM

When you wait for the turn to raise, the idea is to put in more big bets with the best hand with higher equity than you had before. But in this hand, 3 people called the flop and yet he's still betting into the whole field on the turn. When you raise the turn now, you're likely going to be putting in more big bets with the worst hand and very poor equity.

So, I would just raise the flop to punish overcards while you still can. If 3-bet, I think I call down but consider folding if an A or K hits.

And by the way, please raise the turn when you make your full house.

cmwck · #4 08-12-2005, 10:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
no it's horrible.

You can't protect your hand. Your position relative to the likely better makes that impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I thought the OP was reffering to the 'two overpair hands' section as opposed to waiting till the turn to protect.

beachbum · #5 08-13-2005, 12:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You can't protect your hand. Your position relative to the likely better makes that impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry, I used the wrong terminology. I was referring to the "Two Overpair hands" section in SSHE. Regarding pot equity, after the flop if I've got the best hand I have a small equity edge over the 3 other opponents. Waiting for a blank to come on the turn greatly increases my pot equity and allows me to face my opponent behind me with calling 2 bets cold as well as having SB and BB put more money in when I'm a significant favorite. This considering me a favorite includes factoring in the range of hands SB has and the likelihood he's either got big overcards, an underpair to mine, or an overpair to mine.

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising the turn is really really bad. Imagine if Villian had A3. How much money would you leave on the table by waiting till the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Using my pot equity analysis, I most likely went from a slight equity favorite on the flop to close to 100% pot equity having the other 3 nearly drawing dead.

It's highly unlikely the preflop raiser or cold caller has a 3. On the turn, I'm sure I would have heard if the BB did. A turn raise most likely gets me at least 2 more BB's (1 from SB and BB each). But, then what about the river? It most likely goes check-check-bet-call-call.

Yes slowplaying the turn allowed both players to hit the card they were drawing (dead) to. In hindsight, this allowed me to collect a total of 8 BB's by not raising, instead of 4 BB's if I would've raised the turn. But maybe the times I can collect those bets by raising the turn makes up for the times that I just call the turn and both players don't improve on the river.

I'm not disagreeing with you, krishan, but am presenting my case. What do you think?

Anyway, the main reason for posting this hand is to properly understand Ed's Two Overpair Hand technique.

SkittleBrau · #6 08-13-2005, 12:53 AM

Once SB and BB put money in on the turn, they are probably going to call a raise for one more anyway... certainly if they have any kind of reasonable draw to a good second best hand. And if they hit you're still likely to get good action on the river.

ghostface · #7 08-13-2005, 12:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine if Villian had A3

[/ QUOTE ]

MrTeddyKGB · #8 08-13-2005, 01:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Regarding pot equity, after the flop if I've got the best hand I have a small equity edge over the 3 other opponents. Waiting for a blank to come on the turn greatly increases my pot equity and allows me to face my opponent behind me with calling 2 bets cold as well as having SB and BB put more money in when I'm a significant favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong here. You have a large pot equity edge here on the flop not a small one. If you are facing 3 overcards here your eqity is around 66% here, too much to pass up. In the SSH example the board was more multi-way and more draw heavy. Here only scare card is an Ace.

Knoler · #9 08-13-2005, 05:06 AM

This hand is bad news.

I think this flop is an easy raise. You've very likely got the best hand, and your equity should be high -- the only cards you're worried about are overcards. ...and it's doubtful that they're all bad.

And oh, by the way, in addition to getting money in with the best hand, by raising the flop you probably push out CO -- and for every overcard he folds you may pick up 3 more safe cards.

Not raising the turn is terrible. At this point you've got two players who will almost *certainly* call one more big bet each. Let them, because it'd be a bummer if the river got checked over to you without SB betting.

A perk of raising the turn is that, if you're lucky, and the ace falls on the river, you may very well get bet into or checkraised anyhow by someone with any A, but esp. A5 or (oh how grand this would be!) A3.

-Brian

Alobar · #10 08-13-2005, 05:15 AM

your turn play = bad