Will the dumb people on this site please leave

[mike4bmp]

Although the OP may be a little harsh I agree with him completely. These games CANNOT be beat...over the long run you will sink your entire BR....the math and theory behind the reasons why these games have a -EV cannot be refuted. Period....
I play two of the 5 games that are theoretically beatable...Poker and BJ (card counting)...and both take a enormous amount of work and study....the casinos will always get you in the end with the other games...unless you make a big score at the craps table and never set foot in a casino again. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Peace

[Double Down]

Why is it that the people who refute the notion of craps being beatable do not comment AT ALL on the subject of precision shooting? Good lord, I and others have now made our cases on why we think precision shooting is for real, so respond to that. Don't just repeat what someone else says, "Yup, it's not for real. I agree." Read a book, do some research, and then make a post when you have something to say.

[mike4bmp]

ok...I accept what you are saying...maybe I should read a book...but its like BJ is NOT beatable without a solid counting strategy...with the strategy you have a theoretical/mathematical overlay....note the term "MATHEMATICAL"...Poker is the same thing...if you don't know beans about it then you will be a long term loser...the strategy behind winning in poker (limit poker anyways) is also mathematical/theoretical....the point is you can have a PROVABLE overlay by means of statistics, probability and mathematics....
So what is this precision shooting? Does it depend on the shooter's ability to throw the die perfectly or skillfully? If this is the case then it has nothing to do with probability does it?....so you pit your money against the house based soley on a HUMAN's ability to control his/her hand in a "flawless" fashion....you call this an unrefutable system for gaining a +EV...you can say with ABSOLUTE CONFIDENCE that a person using a "precision shooting" method will have a DEFINITE overlay on the house. If you feel this way...then please start playing poker...guys like you are definitely welcome at the tables...just come up with your fail proof system and buy in...I'll see ya there... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Double Down]

Ok, you make an interesting point. Is the ability to precision shoot to the extent that it is +EV available to most people with basic motor skills and hand/eye coordination, or does one need to be good at it and have a natural born talent to do it? Well, I'm not sure, BUT during the seminar I took, I was not given a reason to believe that only some of us would be able to acquire the skill, but rather it was a matter of practicing the precision throw over and over and over again until it was in our muscle memory. From what I have read and seen, any person with basic motor skills could create for himself the +EV controlled throw to the extent that it could be put into muscle memory.

So it's similar to counting cards, where someone does need to have a basic competence for counting, estimating thickness of discarded cards, and of course intangibles like self discipline and ability to read the casino situation to tell whether or not it's time to leave or use a cover play, etc.

Yes, there is a difference, in that you can mathematically prove that if someone did have these characteristics, then one would be playing with an advantage in blackjack and in craps it's a gray area. But what the craps experts are claiming is that if one were to put in the time practicing towards a throw where the dice are doing the same thing in the air, that after a certain period of time, say a few hours a day for a week, you could throw the dice with enough accuracy to create a long term mathematcial edge in the game of craps.

And from what I witnessed during the seminar and afterwards in my own craps sessions, I believe it.

[mike4bmp]

[ QUOTE ]
So it's similar to counting cards, where someone does need to have a basic competence for counting, estimating thickness of discarded cards, and of course intangibles like self discipline and ability to read the casino situation to tell whether or not it's time to leave or use a cover play, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point...I never thought of it that way...
I'm going to have to look into this precision shooting thing...=)

[lastsamurai]

can somebody KILL this THREAD!