PL $25 Flush Draw & Overcards

daveymck · #1 05-23-2005, 05:57 PM

Guy had just sat down 10 hands 38%VPIP for what its worth and had not shown down a hand. This is more a limit move protecting my K outs but also semi bluff raising is talked about in Rueben and ciaffone's book. Also should I be raisng pre flop?

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown
converter has screwed the colours only me and MP1 to the turn.
MP3 ($31)
CO ($39.45)
Hero ($26.65)
SB ($19.1)
[BB ($30.8)
UTG ($6.06)
UTG+1 ($39.98)
MP1 ($12.2)
MP2 ($17.5)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.1. UTG posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, MP3 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.25, SB (poster) completes, UTG (poster) checks.

Flop: ($1.25) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets $0.25, UTG raises to $0.5, MP1 raises to $2, MP3 folds, Hero raises to $8, SB folds, UTG folds, MP1 calls $6.

Turn: ($18) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
MP1 calls $3.95 (All-In), Hero calls $3.95.

River: ($25.90) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $25.90

daveymck · #2 05-24-2005, 06:23 AM

n/t

Ojo_Rojo · #3 05-24-2005, 06:46 AM

I think I would smooth call on the flop, for these reasons:

1) You might be pushed off the hand by SB or UTG re-reraising behind you.
2) You really want them to smooth call the $2 bet in order to make the pot odds sweeter.
3) A semi-bluff is used if you think your opponents have a good chance of folding... I'm not sure if thats the case here.
4) If your K is an out (unlikely), it doesnt need much protecting, as I cant see anyone going past the flop with AK(with no pf raise), KQ, or KJ. This is NL after all.

Ojo_Rojo

jkkkk · #4 05-24-2005, 07:03 AM

'Hero raises to $8'

wtf, thats one hell of a semi-bluff for a $3 pot.

gave yourself crap odd's here, but you know that.

daveymck · #5 05-24-2005, 07:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
'Hero raises to $8'

wtf, thats one hell of a semi-bluff for a $3 pot.

gave yourself crap odd's here, but you know that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe to clarify, my intent was to get heads up with the smaller stack, I wanted to be all in with him on the flop to get both cards with my flush draw and overcard outs (hence the semi bluff/protection against the other). Had he had a bigger stack I would have flat called.

jkkkk · #6 05-24-2005, 08:04 AM

why would you want to isolate the short stack with intention to get it all in?

you do realise you are the underdog in this situation?

i usually play strong draws with good implied odd's.

daveymck · #7 05-24-2005, 08:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
why would you want to isolate the short stack with intention to get it all in?

you do realise you are the underdog in this situation?

i usually play strong draws with good implied odd's.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect through misapplication of what I have read.

But we want to see both cards so dont want to be facing a further bet on the turn (where potentially we should fold), the suggestion in NL/PL (as I have read it) is its better to get all in this situation than face the difficult decision on the turn.

Need to do a bit more rereading and definatley more understanding of this I think.

PinkSteel · #8 05-24-2005, 08:32 AM

Someone smack me if I get this wrong, but I think for semi-bluffing...

Heads up, you would have been doing the right thing as you might have had significant fold equity, and a chance to make best hand if called.

But only best hand wins at showdown, and multiway, your chances of folding everyone are significantly smaller -- especially with two raisers in front of you. So while you certainly thinned the field, you will almost certainly still have to make your draw to win, and I don't think you have the odds.

OTOH, in a multiway pot, you get great odds to keep drawing by just calling and letting several others come along for the ride. If you hit you may get paid from several sources.

Your raise definitely helped disguise your hand, but the disguise was only worth about three bucks for the last call, which he would have done anyway.

Long way of saying I would have flat called the flop.

jkkkk · #9 05-24-2005, 09:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why would you want to isolate the short stack with intention to get it all in?

you do realise you are the underdog in this situation?

i usually play strong draws with good implied odd's.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect through misapplication of what I have read.

But we want to see both cards so dont want to be facing a further bet on the turn (where potentially we should fold), the suggestion in NL/PL (as I have read it) is its better to get all in this situation than face the difficult decision on the turn.

Need to do a bit more rereading and definatley more understanding of this I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

its ok, we're all here to learn.

i'm not sure which thread you read, i can only think of the one where me and ghazban were discussing the size of the raise on the flop, which in this situation, someone had flopped a set.

now when you flop a set, your not going to get away from it even on a draw heavy board simply because its too strong a hand to lay down, so when we were discussing raises, i think ghazban was raising to a decent amount so that his decision on the turn, no matter how scary / good, gives him no other choice but to push the rest.

in this situation, you are drawing.

you are favourite to a mere pair of 9's, but a dog to a lot of other made hands, which your $8 raise is only going to get called by.

i hope you understand now why this raise was too big, a flat call would be fine in this spot also if you think the others will call.

swolfe · #10 05-24-2005, 10:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I suspect through misapplication of what I have read.

But we want to see both cards so dont want to be facing a further bet on the turn (where potentially we should fold), the suggestion in NL/PL (as I have read it) is its better to get all in this situation than face the difficult decision on the turn.

Need to do a bit more rereading and definatley more understanding of this I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

ciaffone is talking about a STRONG draw, not just a naked flush with crappy overs. a strong draw would be:

- flush + gutshot + overs
- flush + pair + gutshot
- flush + OESD

also, you really want to only make this move when you have a good idea what your opponent is holding. for example, if it's a tight player that only raises preflop with big pairs, then we have a good idea what he's holding and know (basically) what to count as outs.

in your case, you have no idea what he has...it's an unraised pot. someone made a bet and a raise in front of you...this is not a good time for a semi-bluff raise. you have very little fold equity (which makes up a lot of the success of the semi-bluff).