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  #1  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:52 PM
0 doubt 0 doubt is offline
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Default A less clear hand to comment on for the esteemed panel

I was asked to find a less clear hand. How about this one? I feel like I should have raised the flop or even preflop?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, CO calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB
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  #2  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:58 PM
silkyslim silkyslim is offline
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Default Re: A less clear hand to comment on for the esteemed panel

Gotta raise preflop or fold. I guess you are hoping to spike an A or J. i could find a fold on the turn since the board 2 flushed and you dont have the A or J of [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. you have basically no clean outs. i would most like to see the J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]or [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the river, but the pot isnt big enough
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  #3  
Old 12-28-2005, 05:00 PM
0 doubt 0 doubt is offline
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Default Re: A less clear hand to comment on for the esteemed panel

The inside straight draw doesn't help out my odds enough?
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  #4  
Old 12-28-2005, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: A less clear hand to comment on for the esteemed panel

I raise this preflop or I let it go. I don't want a multiway pot with AJo. Call on the flop is fine but I let it go on the turn. The pot isn't big enough and some of my outs may be dirty. A Jack on the river also gives QJ or any 8 a straight. So even if we do make our gutshot we may be beaten.. Nah, to dangerous, I fold the turn since the pot is to small for me wanting to take any risks.
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  #5  
Old 12-28-2005, 05:04 PM
0 doubt 0 doubt is offline
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Default Re: A less clear hand to comment on for the esteemed panel

THAT is a place where I'm losing some money then. Good stuff, makes sense. thanks. I do seem to find myself in vague situations (as I see them) because of limping like that from time to time.
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  #6  
Old 12-28-2005, 05:19 PM
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Default Re: A less clear hand to comment on for the esteemed panel

PREFLOP: What to with AJo UTG in a ten handed game has been debated for a long time, probably becuz it really doesnt matter whether you raise/call/or fold this hand. However you are currently in a 8 handed situation. In this spot I think raising is the best play.

FLOP: You should fold, the pot is small. On this board your overcard outs are probably no good and all you have is a one gard gutshot that isnt to the nuts and theres a decent chance you will have to split if you hit.

Lets try to figure out your pure outs. I would give your ace outs 1.5 pure outs since, many times you will hit this hand and still lose. I would give your jack outs .5 pure outs since if this card hits the turn, you should be check-folding more than betting or check-calling. I would assign your gutshot outs to 2 pure outs. Given that 3 other opponents are still in this hand there is a higher chance than normal that you will have to split this pot if you hit, and even if you hit your hand on the turn you can still be up against a higher straight or you can still get outdrawn if a jack falls on the river. So you you have a total of 4 pure outs, and your getting 8.5-1 pot odds to call. Since you need approx 11-1 to call you should fold. But what about implied odds?? Well I would estimate your implied odds to be zero since many of the hands you hit can cost you just as much money as you make, and if you hit your straight you dont stand to make many additional bets from 2nd best hands since this board will look extremely scary for anyone who doesnt have a straight.

TURN: Despite everything I said about your flop play, calling the flop wouldnt be terrible, and it would only be a small mistake at best, and who knows maybe its a profitable call cuz there are enough dumb players to pay you off with one pair if you hit your gutshot on the turn.
However, calling the turn would be terrible IMO. Now your odds are considerably worse, you are only getting 6.75-1 instead of 8.5-1 and now, whatever implied odds you think you might have are also severly diminished since you only have one street left to make any money if you do hit your hand. You should fold.
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  #7  
Old 12-28-2005, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: A less clear hand to comment on for the esteemed panel

[ QUOTE ]
Gotta raise preflop or fold. I guess you are hoping to spike an A or J. i could find a fold on the turn since the board 2 flushed and you dont have the A or J of [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. you have basically no clean outs. i would most like to see the J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]or [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the river, but the pot isnt big enough

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with your raise/fold line with AJo here. Like you, I also believe raising is the best play here, but calling is much better than folding IMO. The hero has too strong of a hand in this 8 handed situation to consider folding IMO.
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  #8  
Old 12-28-2005, 05:49 PM
matt hooley matt hooley is offline
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Default Re: A less clear hand to comment on for the esteemed panel

if anyone claims to either be raising or folding preflop "here" then they are not giving you enough information because game specifics are vital to preflop play.

but seriously, folding AJo UTG is just throwing away equity. In a loose game raising would also be less profitable, but even in a tight game I don't like raising from EP because you'll just blow away hands that you want limping behind you.

edit, this is replying to OP
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  #9  
Old 12-28-2005, 06:09 PM
TripleH68 TripleH68 is offline
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Default Re: A less clear hand to comment on for the esteemed panel

AJo is marginally +EV UTG.

I'd like to know why you did not raise preflop. I am not saying that you should have necessarily. Some things are important though like

1) How the table will react to your raise UTG?
2) How do the button and blinds play?
3) Are there any chronic cold-callers to your immediate left?

With no other information I think raising preflop is slightly better than calling is slightly better than folding, but this preflop call is not one to sweat over.

On the flop getting 8.5:1 almost closing the action I would peel here also, then fold the turn.
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  #10  
Old 12-28-2005, 06:52 PM
ackid ackid is offline
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Default Re: A less clear hand to comment on for the esteemed panel

Raising the pot with a/j UTG is not a good play at the 1/2 level IMO.

Once you miss the flop I like a check/fold.
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