Overcards heads up CRed on the flop

thesharpie · #1 04-04-2005, 06:10 PM

If you raise PF and only the BB calls, flop misses you, BB checks, you bet, BB check raises, is it worth calling the flop getting about 7-1 knowing you're going to have to fold the turn UI? How many outs do you estimate we have? (Assuming we're behind, which doesn't matter because we can't call his turn bet UI anyway)

istewart · #2 04-04-2005, 06:15 PM

What type of flop?

thesharpie · #3 04-04-2005, 06:20 PM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 7 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

This is the particular hand that made me think about it. I really should've folded this draw heavy board on the flop, but villain was tricky and likely on a draw so I wanted to call, even though I won't be able to call the turn if he is on a draw unless I improve.

But I was also wondering about a draw less board where you know villain has at least a pair, but is likely to try this play with middle pair.

jookiebrown · #4 04-04-2005, 06:27 PM

that you gotta fold. if the flop is rainbow and all over say T73 then you can MAYBE reraise; You are now in a raise or fold situation. The question to ask yourself is would the villain check raise that flop with QT or worse? you have to assume a horrible or at least superaggressive player to believe that your outs are clean. Without a decent read it's adios.

SteveL91 · #5 04-04-2005, 08:54 PM

This is the particular hand that made me think about it. I really should've folded this draw heavy board on the flop, but villain was tricky and likely on a draw so I wanted to call, even though I won't be able to call the turn if he is on a draw unless I improve.

[/ QUOTE ]
Given the fact that the villain is tricky, I personally don't think your wanting to call is a good idea: Either re-raise or fold. I highly doubt he has QT so I wouldn't worry about it too much, but it's possible. If you've been raising and showing down a lot of hands where you raised in this position with broadway hands, he may very well be trying to push you off overcards with a smaller PP, or he may have paired the board.

Given that you have position on him, I think you can try playing it a bit trickier. Of course, he could have exactly what he's representing, but I think you're going to run into a lot of problems if you continually play HU hands like this.

JC_Saves · #6 04-18-2005, 06:09 PM

(blind response)

For the hand you have listed there:
Calling the bet on the flop was wrong I think.

I don't know why you folded to the bet on the turn. Your hand went from 6 outs to 10 outs 4 Q's. with 10 outs you are 22% to hit on the river. the pot is giving your perfect odds to draw out, not to mention your implied odds on the river. Easy call.

We have to continually reevaluate hands and assign them relative value along the way. This hand was not good on the flop, but on the turn it became playable for the river.

The hypothetical situation:

I think this is a fold if you are not going to the river. You basically have 6 outs for your overcards, given a ragged board so you are 1-(41/47)= 13% chance to improve on the turn.

This is a fold situation given you are folding to a turn bet unimproved and the pot odds are not enough. Negative EV play