Folding KK preflop?

#1 10-30-2005, 01:30 PM

You know that feeling, you think he has Aces but you push anyway because you have Kings? I mean who folds KK preflop, that's weak poker! Or is it?

Hand 01:

Villan is TAGish and plays very straight forward, first hand he plays in about two orbits.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($321.93)
BB ($127.30)
UTG ($13.10)
MP ($130.05)
CO ($96.50)
Hero ($105.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, MP calls $1, CO raises to $4, Hero raises to $12, 1 fold, BB calls $11, MP folds, CO calls $92.50 (All-In), Hero folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: $122

I mucked and it felt ok to fold here IMO.

Hand 02:

Villan has been pretty passive, he hasn't raised much preflop. Min raise + 3bet smells like Aces?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($96)
SB ($104.60)
BB ($241.13)
UTG ($97.30)
MP ($89.42)
CO ($142.18)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, CO raises to $2, Hero raises to $8, 2 folds, CO raises to $25, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $34.50

Ugh... That's twice in 20 minutes I've folded Kings (breath in...breath out... fold).

Hand 03:
This is in a full game a couple of months ago.
No specific read on Villan.

Party Poker (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
7 folds, MP1 calls 152.30 (All-In), Hero calls 101.50 (All-In), 1 fold.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot:

His weird cold call preflop made me do it, should probably have folded this hand too? I mean, lets get real, can I really expect to see QQ or AK here that often to make this call profitable? I sucked out goot anyway!!

Hand 04:
This hand is also acouple of months old.
Pretty much the same scenario as the second hand, same type of player.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Hero ($95)
UTG ($57.62)
MP ($45.80)
Button ($133.24)
SB ($88.20)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, Button calls $1, SB (poster) raises to $1.5, Hero raises to $7, Button folds, SB raises to $29.5, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $39

Are most of these hands standard folds, or do most of you guys push/call here?
I've logged 20k hands at this level and had KK 98 times. Folded them 3 times preflop.
It's not really the end of the world if I'm wrong and the guy has QQ or AK one of those times right?
Looking at my pokerhand database and looking at these preflop situations, the 3 bettor has Aces almost everytime given that he's not a total LAG.
I feel pretty good about the way I played the hands I posted, I don't think it's weak but what do you guys think?
What do you do in these situations? I'd like to hear your thoughts on folding KK preflop in a cashgame.

Thanks!
Rob

Raydain · #2 10-30-2005, 02:58 PM

Don't fold KK preflop

Especially not at Party Poker

Especially not 6-handed!

#3 10-30-2005, 03:01 PM

Folding KK should be the exception, not the norm when you are playing $100 NL. I think you are especially nuts for folding in Hand 4. I think you have the SB by a mile and it is not even close.

#4 10-30-2005, 03:13 PM

Ya, I think your crazy. I find most people 3 bet pf with KK,QQ, JJ, 10 10. Especially on party. You show 3 times where you've folded KK here. I think 3% of the time (or something like that) someone else has AA. So your call might be correct if you've had 100 KK hands during this time. This I doubt. I also think that 3% stat is for full ring games and 6 handed will be a lower percentage still. I almost never fold KK pf. When in doubt I push. Once I've gone all in pf and had AA call. Luckily, even then I hit a K and won.

#5 10-30-2005, 07:38 PM

Dan Harrington:

"I'm not good enough to fold KK preflop and neither are you"

Case closed.

ESPECIALLY 6 HANDED ON PP!

-fop

Allinlife · #6 10-30-2005, 07:45 PM

you must hate money

you only fold KK preflop with someone you have enough information (stats+reads) to believe that they would only play AA that way. on party 25nl 6max, this is very rarely the case. You see these guys do this with random PPs, AK/AQs and what not.

elus2 · #7 10-30-2005, 07:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When in doubt I push.

[/ QUOTE ]

flat call and playing postflop poker correctly extracts more value against your opponent's weaker hands. by pushing preflop you let all those other hands get away cheap.

pokerjoker · #8 10-30-2005, 08:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Dan Harrington:

"I'm not good enough to fold KK preflop and neither are you"

Case closed.

ESPECIALLY 6 HANDED ON PP!

-fop

[/ QUOTE ]

not that I disagree with you here entirely but keep in mind Harrington is talking abotu tournaments.

yvesaint · #9 10-30-2005, 09:09 PM

you dont have to fold KK pre-flop, but you also don't have to push it either

if youre unsure of what to do, call, and either check-raise all-in on the flop or raise all-in on the flop depending on your position

#10 10-30-2005, 09:37 PM

This is absurdly weak. Just today a guy 4-bet me all-in when I had QQ and I let it go. He showed 27o. He was playing pretty straightforward up until that point. There's no folding KK preflop, 6-handed. Almost never in a full ring game either.

EDIT: Also, AA is LESS LIKELY when someone shoves preflop. People with AA min-reraise or make small reraises more often that shove.