Losing with 33 - some hands for inspection.

TripleH68 · #1 10-17-2005, 01:18 PM

After 45,000 hands in my PT database I am winning with AA-88, losing with 77-22.
Looking specifically at 33 I have been dealt the hand 154 times:

VP$IP = 50%
CCPF once
W$WSF = 15%
W$SD = 50%
WTSD = 15%
bb/hand = (0.20)

Not the largest sample size, but considering my stats are similar for 22, 44, 55 and 66 here are a few hand samples I picked out.
Some are very routine, some not. I hope you do not consider this post a waste of time/space. I am just starting to feel like maybe I should really tighten up with these low pockets unless I can figure out how to play them better. Thanks in advance for any/all discussion.

HAND 1
Perhaps a stale debate on whether you should open limp in EP?
PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, MP3 raises, 4 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (5.33 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 3.16 BB

HAND 2
Preflop call seems okay. Call this flop?
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.
UTG raises, UTG+1 3-bets, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, Hero (poster) calls, MP3 calls, 4 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, Hero calls, MP3 folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (9.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 raises, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls.

River: (13.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has Qs As (one pair, aces).
UTG+2 has Kc Kh (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 15.75 BB. 

HAND 3
CO preflop raise is 9%. Should hero consider raising this somewhere?
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, CO raises, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 3c 3h (two pair, nines and sevens).
CO has Js Ac (two pair, nines and sevens).
Outcome: CO wins 6.25 BB. 

HAND 4
This seems like another common situation. Does not feel good when it happens...
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (13 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero folds.

Turn: (9 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, SB folds, UTG+1 folds.

River: (12 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 bets, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Results in white below: 
MP1 has 6h Qs (two pair, queens and sixes).
MP3 has 9h Jc (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: MP1 wins 14 BB. 

HAND 5
Did I mess up every street here?
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, SB folds, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 folds.

River: (5.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has 6d Jc (two pair, sixes and fours).
Hero has 3h 3c (two pair, fours and threes).
Outcome: BB wins 5.50 BB. 

HAND 6
Pot is very small.
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.33 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 raises, MP3 folds, BB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 3.66 BB

HAND 7
Bet the turn and/or river here? Villain is 10/9/1.0.
Is the flop bet even worth it?
PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+2 folds.

Turn: (3 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 5 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has 5d Tc (one pair, fives).
Hero has 3c 3d (one pair, threes).
Outcome: BB wins 5 BB.

Fantam · #2 10-17-2005, 01:35 PM

Just an observation, but from your sample of hands, you seem to be pushing your small pairs very hard IMHO.

I am not sure that you were receiving the implied odds necessary to play in all of those hands.

Also I think that I noticed that you called down a couple of times, when your small pair was an underpair to the whole board.

So I would ease up a little bit when playing them, and look for more multiway pots to limp into, unless you are going to open raise off the button.

#3 10-17-2005, 01:37 PM

Hi TripleH-

The fact that you're losing with 77-22 is very disconcerting. It leads me to believe you're calling too much in early or middle position with too few people in the pot. The hands you posted lend validity to my suspicion - imho, if the table is < 30 % VPIP you shouldn't be playing < 66 in early or mid without at least 2 callers.

Here's some feedback about individual hands:

hand 1: Fold this preflop.

hand 2: Don't post in MP2. Don't CC for two bets, it's not worth it at this point, especially when you don't know whether it will be capped. Your implied odds don't justify it.

hand 3: Raise the turn or fold to his turn bet. If you take this line, you can bet through the river and he'll put you on a 7 or 9 often enough to fold this and make your bluff worthwhile once your pair is counterfeited.

hand 4: Standard.

hand 5: Debateable. If your table image is OK a flop bet is alright here but you need to stop firing after that. You won't get both players to fold 25 % of the time here on the turn, especially with the flush draw out there.

hand 6: 2 people left to act after you? Check it through and fold to flop aggression, pot is small. I would bet this if you were last to act, however, and call a check/raise hoping to peel off a diamond.

hand 7: If you're going to try bluffs like this, you need to fire on all 3 streets. After missing the flop bluff, you either give it up or follow through with the river, it's that ace villian should be scared of and give you credit for.

Good luck with your small pocket pairs.

PJM1206 · #4 10-17-2005, 01:47 PM

I only play 44-22 in late postion with 3 callers in front of me other wise I trash them they usually require a set to win and given that it's a 11 to 1 to flop and 22 to 1 after that you need to have several callers in front to play.

PJM1206 · #5 10-17-2005, 01:48 PM

PPS I just recently started to turn a profit on my low pairs

#6 10-17-2005, 01:50 PM

I have good profit margins with my low pp. I want to say somewhere between .2 and .5, on average, although last I checked I think I was losing money with one of them - losing with 66 and making a killing on 55 or something like that. Too bad I don't have a database at work. Too bad work does not equal poker [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Fantam · #7 10-17-2005, 02:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I only play 44-22 in late postion with 3 callers in front of me other wise I trash them they usually require a set to win and given that it's a 11 to 1 to flop and 22 to 1 after that you need to have several callers in front to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

The odds of flopping a set with a pocket pair are about 7.5:1.

#8 10-17-2005, 02:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The odds of flopping a set with a pocket pair are about 7.5:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need better odds for lower pp than higher ones, however, because you are significantly more likely to be facing an overset with 22 than with TT. While your implied odds can make up discrepancies preflop and make it profitable to play 33 with say, 4 other players, hitting your set only to have another player hit another set does tend to reduce this.

RatFink · #9 10-17-2005, 02:21 PM

I find that you need nice loose passive games to play it up front. One dissenter at the table and the low PP go down in value in early position.

I wish I could perfect my table selection skills so I could play it 50% of the times I was dealt it.

I think you're trying to get too much out of it. If you reduce the VP$IP on it by being more situation selective, I believe you'll see low PP start turning a profit for you.

#10 10-17-2005, 03:06 PM

grunch....

hand 1: depends on the tables looseness and postflop aggression i would think. i would guess.... that you should probly fold here on most 2/4 tables

hand 2: fold the flop, throwing money away. with 5 players:
a) there is no guarantee your seeing the turn for 1 bet
b) you will be up against a stack of redraws even if you manage to spike a trey on the turn

hand 3: does villain always continuation bet? i would probly check/raise the flop and bet out the turn with no aggression showed back at me. i doubt he is folding an ace on the river not 1 in 6 times anyway, so i probly check/fold. in game i might try to stab the pot one last time.

hand 4: i actually think you almost have the pot odds to call that flop, but yeah it doesnt feel good at all doing it, particularly lacking the 3c which means you have only 1 real out that will give you the confidence needed to take the implied odds. most likely peel one for the flop and lay down the turn ui.

hand 5: Did I mess up every street here? yes.
preflop you arent getting the runners to set or forget. fold. or possibly raise if you think you can get it to ~1.4 players.
flop check, turn check, river bet. im pretty sure i dont have to explain why, this whole hand cost you a lot, its horrible

hand 6: 4 players = check/fold. what do you hope to achieve on this flop? you are behind and with people that arent folding draws.

hand 7: i dont like preflop, see hand 5 for the reasoning.
check the flop and the hand plays too differently to continue to comment, i really have absolutely no idea why you bet here.

a few overall comments, 33 is a hand that basically has twin peaks in terms of players.
1-2 (based on postflop weakness) you are playing with the intention of remaining in front on the flop and getting them to fold, or against some opponents just calling down because you know the vast majority of the time you are ahead preflop and make money in the longrun against their random aggression.

5-6(based on postflop aggression)+ players its an entirely different story, now you want to limp in and see a flop for cheap, then play on only that 12% of the time you hit a 3 on the flop.

3-4 player is where it gets murky, and 33 suddenly becomes lost.
you dont have the implied odds to call, and yet you arent going to be ahead with a likely 6-8 overcards against you.

so.... preflop, at least imo, you need to do everything in your power to get in to one of the peaks. this means raising on weak tables, folding on tables with loose blinds and 1-2 limpers in LP. getting stuck in the murky waters of 4 to a flop is somewhere you dont ever want to be.