Raise the flop?

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I raise this flop more often then I call. It makes the rest of the hand easier and I feel like I've got quite a bit of equity even with 3 broadway out.

Krishan

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Krishan,

This is very similar to the Q9o hand you posted recently where the flop was 983 two hearts. In that hand, it was very clear that you wanted to call the flop for the exact opposite reasons you give in this situation. I am curious as to what you are thinking.

I'd raise.

The BB could easily have Kx and think he's in the lead with top pair. He could even have AK and be betting top pair plus the same gutshot Straight draw you have.

If you get reraised, BB might have a Straight or two pair (or might just be really enthusiastic about that King hitting on the flop). Call and then decide after the Turn card whether to call it down.

If you just get called on your raise, you can either bet out if checked to on the Turn, or maybe take a free card if you think there's a real possibility of a Checkraise.

[krishanleong]

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I raise this flop more often then I call. It makes the rest of the hand easier and I feel like I've got quite a bit of equity even with 3 broadway out.

Krishan

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Krishan,

This is very similar to the Q9o hand you posted recently where the flop was 983 two hearts. In that hand, it was very clear that you wanted to call the flop for the exact opposite reasons you give in this situation. I am curious as to what you are thinking.

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I think my equity here is much better. And in the q9 hand, the odds that I am folding the best hand if the turn goes bet-raise is not large. In this hand it is large due to the drawy nature of the board.

Krishan

[krishanleong]

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If there are players between you and the bettor who might push you out of a winning hand unless you show strenght, then that is a strong reson for you to show strength".

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Sorta, but this is ESPECIALLY true on this flop because it is so draw heavy. People will get involved with pair + draws quite frequently (and correctly if you are going to fold aces).

Krishan

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I raise this flop more often then I call. It makes the rest of the hand easier and I feel like I've got quite a bit of equity even with 3 broadway out.

Krishan

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Krishan,

This is very similar to the Q9o hand you posted recently where the flop was 983 two hearts. In that hand, it was very clear that you wanted to call the flop for the exact opposite reasons you give in this situation. I am curious as to what you are thinking.

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I think my equity here is much better. And in the q9 hand, the odds that I am folding the best hand if the turn goes bet-raise is not large. In this hand it is large due to the drawy nature of the board.

Krishan

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9h, 8h, 3s is also a very drawy board. I believe that AA also has problems if the turn goes 'bet, raise'.

The only crystal clear difference between the two hands is the absence of one flop caller. IMO, all other aspects are almost identical (at least in the way I play or view my hand vs. my opponents' hands).

Here is what I'm thinking on the flop:

Both hands are equally as likely to be good right now.
Both hands are equally as likely to be drawn out on by the river.
Both hands have an equal amount of scare cards on the turn.
Both hands are equally as likely to be bet off of facing two bets on the turn.

Flop equity should be the same for both unless you can provide a valid argument concerning one less limper.

Any thoughts?

[krishanleong]

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Both hands are equally as likely to be good right now.<font color="green"> I agree </font>
Both hands are equally as likely to be drawn out on by the river.<font color="green"> I disagree strongly. Aces are much stronger. </font>
Both hands have an equal amount of scare cards on the turn.<font color="green"> no, the scare cards that can come on the turn still leave you with an overpair. In my hand I could end up with middle pair. There aren't a huge number of scare cards with Aces. For instance if the board pairs, it's hard to know if it helped you or hurt you</font>
Both hands are equally as likely to be bet off of facing two bets on the turn. <font color="green"> I'd say the AA hand is much more likely in this regard. Well maybe not much more likely but if it happened I would not be happy whereas with the Q9 hand I'd be like, "Well there goes a crappy middle pair hand"</font>

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I would have called the turn the way you played it FWIW.

Good posting.

Krishan

[rory]

I think I raise right away. You have a lot of equity with your gutshot + backdoor flush draw + overpair in the pot. Also, SB might get scared by either both of the flop calls or a scary card on the turn and may not bet again. If you just call you also might set yourself up to get knocked out by the sort of aggro guy on the turn if he decides to make a move or something on the original bettor.

I like waiting a lot of the time on flops to see what happens on the turn when I have position and the original bettor and I have one or more people between us, and I'm last. This one I think I just jack it up, though.

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Both hands are equally as likely to be good right now.<font color="green"> I agree </font>
Both hands are equally as likely to be drawn out on by the river.<font color="green"> I disagree strongly. Aces are much stronger. </font>
Both hands have an equal amount of scare cards on the turn.<font color="green"> no, the scare cards that can come on the turn still leave you with an overpair. In my hand I could end up with middle pair. There aren't a huge number of scare cards with Aces. For instance if the board pairs, it's hard to know if it helped you or hurt you</font>
Both hands are equally as likely to be bet off of facing two bets on the turn. <font color="green"> I'd say the AA hand is much more likely in this regard. Well maybe not much more likely but if it happened I would not be happy whereas with the Q9 hand I'd be like, "Well there goes a crappy middle pair hand"</font>

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I would have called the turn the way you played it FWIW.

Good posting.

Krishan

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Thanks for the compliment.

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<font color="green"> no, the scare cards that can come on the turn still leave you with an overpair. In my hand I could end up with middle pair.</font>

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A scare card is a scare card, it doesn't matter what hand it leaves you with (excluding redraws). Losing with kings to aces is exactly the same as losing with 3s to 4s.

In the Q9o hand, I don't really consider T-K major scare cards on the turn. I'm scared of an 8, A or heart.
In the AA hand, I'm scared of a 9 or a board pair (more so a king than the others).
All other "mild" scare cards in both hands give us some redraws.

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<font color="green"> I'd say the AA hand is much more likely in this regard. Well maybe not much more likely but if it happened I would not be happy whereas with the Q9 hand I'd be like, "Well there goes a crappy middle pair hand"</font>

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That's a psychological attachment to a big pair and is bad for your game.

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Both hands are equally as likely to be good right now.<font color="green"> I agree </font>
Both hands are equally as likely to be drawn out on by the river.<font color="green"> I disagree strongly. Aces are much stronger. </font>

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These two opinions contradict each other unless you specifically know the exact holdings of your opponents.


I'm sure you're fully aware of this, but I'd like to reiterate for the sake of argument (and to help my case [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ):

Poker hand values are relative. If you hold 87d on a 9d, Td, Jd board and for some reason you knew 100% that I have KQd, you should lay it down on the river just as easily as you would Jack high against my Queen high.

[DMBFan23]

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http://www.poker.favos.nl/ Hopefully he doesn't mind me spreading the link, this is Guido's list - a very good one, if I may say so myself.

-DrG

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from the Clark 2/4 hand:

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Furthermore, "making the hand easier to play," "finding out where you're at," and "avoiding a tough decision," are VERY RARELY VALID EXCUSES FOR MAKING ANY PLAY IN LIMIT HOLD 'EM. It's nonsense. Stop thinking like this, guys.

- Ed Miller

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[krishanleong]

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I'd say the AA hand is much more likely in this regard. Well maybe not much more likely but if it happened I would not be happy whereas with the Q9 hand I'd be like, "Well there goes a crappy middle pair hand"



That's a psychological attachment to a big pair and is bad for your game.

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It may seem psychological but it's not. It's because AA is a better hand that my 9s hand. It's also because raising is correct that I would not like it if the turn goes bet/raise I think.

If you are saying a scare card that leaves me with middle pair is the same as a scare card leaving you will an overpair, I'm afraid we will have to disagree.

Krishan