Pushing back with an overpair

edge · #1 03-12-2005, 12:58 AM

This is villian's first orbit, so nothing that happened before really matters.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter

MP ($192)
CO ($150.2)
Button ($89)
SB ($337.3)
Hero ($299.4)
UTG ($425.9)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP posts a blind of $4. SB posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, MP (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, Hero raises to $12, MP calls $12, SB folds.

Flop: ($36) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $25, MP raises to $70, Hero calls $258.40 (All-In), MP calls $106 (All-In).

Turn: ($495.40) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($495.40) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players, 2 all-in)

soah · #2 03-12-2005, 01:05 AM

hand

edge · #3 03-12-2005, 01:14 AM

At a lower level, I'd fold this without a read no problem, but I've noticed that at 2/4, players will bluff-raise low flops against a preflop raiser. I know I do it myself often.

With this happening, what kind of flop am I going to play with AA-QQ? I definitely can't just call the raise with all the draws out there.

soah · #4 03-12-2005, 01:25 AM

You think it's a bluff or a semi-bluff? There is zero value in pushing against a bluff. When you push it is completely obvious what you have and no one will make a mistake against you. They call with hands that beat you, hands that have plenty of outs against you, and fold the rest.

That's also why you should raise much bigger preflop when you're in the blinds. You're giving up a lot of information about your hand. If you're unwilling to let go postflop, then you need to get as much as possible in preflop.

BobboFitos · #5 03-12-2005, 01:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You think it's a bluff or a semi-bluff? There is zero value in pushing against a bluff. When you push it is completely obvious what you have and no one will make a mistake against you. They call with hands that beat you, hands that have plenty of outs against you, and fold the rest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Soah, I like what you're saying.

Just to extrapolate (sp?) - you suggest then calling and pushing on a blank turn?

soah · #6 03-12-2005, 01:28 AM

I realized I wasn't sure about that, so I went back and edited some more onto my post. Guess I wasn't fast enough.

BobboFitos · #7 03-12-2005, 01:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I realized I wasn't sure about that, so I went back and edited some more onto my post. Guess I wasn't fast enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

good stuff - food for thought.

FWIW, (applicable to others) overraising big hands out of the blinds isn't a bad thing. Alot of people will mistakenly put you on mediocre hands that dont want to see a flop (like AQ, TT) and push back or call with hands they shouldn't. This also sets them up to play poorly postflop.

I haven't been doing this enough, but I think I'm going to. (with alot of limpers) It's really annoying when everyone folds, but they only have to call a X% of the time to make htis better than a standard raise...

soah · #8 03-12-2005, 01:38 AM

I'd rather take the limps uncontested than to play a big pair out of position with deep stacks.

redsoxsox · #9 03-12-2005, 01:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather take the limps uncontested than to play a big pair out of position with deep stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a preoblem I have alwways wanted to get my big pairs paid off. Which often times can cause me money instead of making a profit

edge · #10 03-12-2005, 01:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You think it's a bluff or a semi-bluff? There is zero value in pushing against a bluff. When you push it is completely obvious what you have and no one will make a mistake against you. They call with hands that beat you, hands that have plenty of outs against you, and fold the rest.

That's also why you should raise much bigger preflop when you're in the blinds. You're giving up a lot of information about your hand. If you're unwilling to let go postflop, then you need to get as much as possible in preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did bump it to 16 preflop. The coverter lied. Anyway, even if I put him on a bluff, I can't just call, because so many turn cards make it hard to play. I think I have to push here if I put him on a bluff. Yes, he won't make a mistake, but then I won't have to play a turn pot as big as my remaining stack with no idea where I am.