Good Play or Bad Play?

[esbesb]

I would very much appreciate feedback on the following play. Do you think it is good or bad? If good, how good and why? If bad, how bad and why? I'll hold off on explaining my reasoning and the results so as not to prejudice the responses.

Early-ish stages of a live tournament. Blinds are 75/150. I have about 4500 in chips.

I am UTG with pocket tens. I limp in.

Folded to player in mid position with only about 1200 chips. He raises to 500.

Folded to button who has about 3000 in chips. He calls the 500 raise.

Blinds fold and it comes back to me.

I push.

Thank you in advance for your opinions.

[Tosh]

I think you did it backwards. I raise initially, and just call the raise.

[Scooterdoo]

TT is a hand that I would hate to limp with. It's a strong hand assuming you can either get heads-up, or at a minimum, get a good read on your opponent. By making a strong raise, say 3-4x BB you are virtually assured that you will either take down the pot, or be up against someone with a lesser pair or overcards. AA - QQ will probably re-raise you. JJ could call you so that would be a bad situation. If overcards flop you can slow down a bit or test the waters with a bet and see if you get re-raised. Once you checked the flop and had two players against you, I don't mind the push.

Another problem with limping, especially UTG, is that it often encourages multiple limpers and then you have a multi-way pot where vitually any flop with over-cards is likely to sink you -- and now you are often out of position, assuming a few other limpers outside the blinds, and you are really in weak spot.

[dogmeat]

Nicely answered!

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[cferejohn]

Hmm, I don't hate it, but I'm not sure I would ever do it. It looks like you are trying to isolate the MP raiser with possible overcards to take a coinflip with substantial overlay. Of course, he could easily have an overpair (and in fact if he is a reasonable player, I don't think he would raise that much of his stack with anything else.

I'd probably flat call the raise and proceed from there, but with the right reads on the 2 players (i.e. MP as loose-aggressive, and button as not tricky (i.e. not calling with AA to trap), it's definitely +EV. Plus, some players will put you on nothing but AA/KK with this move and you might even get JJ or maybe even QQ to lay down (but I wouldn't bet on that second one).

[soxfan70]

Haven't read any other responses yet, but I think this is a bad, bad play. I would be curious to know your thought process when you limped, and when you pushed. I like the limp - I don't want to put too much in here with a pair of tens. Now, when the shortstack raises half his stack instead of pushing, bells start going off for me. I think he's trying to maximize his return on a big hand, not trying to steal the blinds and your limp. Now, i'm not too concerned about the button calling, as with the shortstack's raise, I'm playing these 10's for set value, or an undercard flop.
Did you think the shortstack raiser was going to fold his last 700 chips with your push? I dont think there's anyway he's going to, and as I said before, I put him on a decent hand that he's trying to maxamize. Why not just call, and get away from the hand if you don't improve?
I'm thinking that maybe your logic here is to have the shortstack call, and the button fold, which I guess eliminates one hand. But I think I like my conservative approach better. But, who knows, I have been called weak tight before.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Another problem with limping, especially UTG, is that it often encourages multiple limpers and then you have a multi-way pot where vitually any flop with over-cards is likely to sink you -- and now you are often out of position, assuming a few other limpers outside the blinds, and you are really in weak spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I think by playing it this way, you are obligating yourself to check-fold if you get several limpers, no raise, and overcards on the flop. You can get aggressive with a low flop, and if you flop a set you can trap. If there are a couple players in LP who seem to like limping into a lot of pots and making plays at it when no one seems interested in it, that could net you alot of chips when you do hit your set.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you think the shortstack raiser was going to fold his last 700 chips with your push? I dont think there's anyway he's going to, and as I said before, I put him on a decent hand that he's trying to maxamize.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he has a decent hand and I think he will call. If a) he has overcards and b) the button folds, you're taking the good end of a coinflip with about 600 chips in dead money in the pot. I'll take that. While I agree he is very unlikely to fold, I don't think the chance is 0, because some players will think that this "must" be AA/KK.

The question is, is the +EV from the times he has overcards or an underpair more than the -EV from the times that he (or worse, the button) has an overpair and calls (although you probably just pushed the button off of JJ if he is reasonable and maybe even QQ if he is weak-tight).

Like I said, I don't think I would play it this way, but I can easily put both of my opponents on hands that would make this a +EV move.

[Scooterdoo]

ty

[betgo]

Limping with tens UTG is generally OK.

When you have a big raise and a call, I think pushing is bad. There is a good chance someone had a higher pair. You are not going to force out the short stack, and you cannot expect to be the favorite against him.

You are getting 3-1 on your money, so it may be worth calling, mainly hoping to catch a set.