2, 3 for low - consensus

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Omaha is a 4 card game...RULE # ONE. Regardless of how loose a om8 game is, 23xx rarely wins more than half the pot to show a profit.

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Fool - Well... you got part of it right. You’re correct that the deuce-trey two-card combination rarely wins more than half the pot.

But since you are aware that you get dealt four cards, you must realize you’re not just dealt a deuce and a trey. Do you think maybe there are some cards we can put with the deuce and the trey such that the hand might show a profit when played well? How about a pair of jacks, one the same suit as the deuce and the other the same suit as the trey? How do you think that hand fares?

2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. How does that hand do? Do you think maybe it’s worth seeing the flop for a bet with that hand?

I do.

Here is simulation data for the hand in a nine handed game, 10000 runs:
hand.....high...low...scoop...total
<font color="blue">23JJd.....267.....609.....780.....165 6</font>

Or how about 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? Is that one playable?
<font color="white">_</font>
<font color="white">_</font>
<font color="white">_</font>
I think so.

nine handed, 10000 runs:
hand.....high...low...scoop...total
<font color="blue">23QKd.....388.....588.....668.....164 4</font>

They’re not spectacular. Just solid, very playable hands. Notice that scoops make a greater contribution to the winning total than the low alone.

I didn’t pick the best other two cards to go with the deuce and trey. If you exclude aces, that would be a pair of kings, one suited to the deuce and the other suited to the trey.

But there are lots of other two-card combinations that, when combined with a deuce and a trey to make a four card hand, can be profitably played.

But not all other two card combinations.
2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], for example, would not be a very good starting hand.
nine handed, 10000 runs:
hand.....high...low...scoop...total
<font color="red">2378n.....211.....603.....166.....980</font>

And some other two card combinations added to the deuce-trey would make marginal starting hands,
2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], for example, seems marginal to me.
nine handed, 10000 runs:
hand.....high...low...scoop...total
<font color="green">23TTs.....182.....640.....557.....13 79</font>

Bottom line: Some 23XY hands seem playable for a profit, some seem marginal, and others seem poor. 23XY hands are neither pure black nor pure white. Some are a lighter shade of gray, while others are a darker shade of gray.

[ QUOTE ]
In a loose om8 game, you can expect the majority of A5xx and A4xx, plus any Axsuitedxx to be played...thus, when an A hits the flop and gives you a low draw, or the nut low...loose om8 players are RARELY folding their top pair...thus you are usually looking at half the pot from the start.

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That is also true of A2XY hands.

But for either 23XY hands or A2XY hands.... well.... it’s sort of a half truth and therefore very misleading. When there’s no ace in the hand, then the most prominent feature of most 23XY hands is probably the deuce-trey, and that’s primarily a low combo.

So, yes, you’re going to win the low half the pot more often than you’ll scoop. But some 23XY hands (for example, 23JJd, and 23QKd), actually figure to profit more by scooping than by just winning the low halves, although they’ll win the low halves more often than they’ll scoop (but not twice as often).

[ QUOTE ]
This leads to RULE # TWO: om8 is all about scooping...THAT is where the real money is to be made...ESPECIALLY in loose om8 games.

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Another half truth. Omaha-8 isn’t “all” about scooping.

Certainly your objective should be to scoop. Certainly you want to play starting hands that have a good chance to scoop. And, yes, “THAT is where the real money is to be made.”

But that’s not all there is to the game. Only a fool would think that’s all there is to the game. (Sorry, I couldn’t resist). [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Buzz

of course...absolutely.

i was basically responding to how the question was stated.

the question was stated in isolation, hence my answer...

THE FOOL

i just noticed that you continued to bloviate in your post...my apologies for not scrolling for 2 hrs. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

and yes, the "objective" for LOOSE om8 games (not tight/agg) is to play tighter, and try and start with the best possible POTENTIAL SCOOPING HAND--in the words of Scotty N. "That's what its ALL about bbbbaby!" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

THE FOOL

The one who never folded 2,3 is a MORON!!! Please send him to my table ASAP! Can always use another dead money fish to play with. A/2 is sh*t with now high draw, so how can 2,3 be any better...lol I just love how ppl rationalize bad play. Muck it every time.

MUCK it EVERYTIME---BABY!

Finally some sense...good naked A2 comment too.

THE FOOL

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
A/2 is sh*t with now high draw, so how can 2,3 be any better...

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Knoll - Are you serious? Do you really not see how it is possible for a hand with a deuce and a trey to be a better starting hand than a hand with an ace and a deuce?

Basically there are three ways a starting hand with a deuce and a trey can be better than a starting hand with an ace and a deuce.
• 1. The other two cards in the hand with the deuce and trey can be better high cards than the other two cards in the hand with the ace and deuce. (eg. 23KKn compared to A299n).
• 2. The other two cards in the hand with the deuce and trey can be better low cards than the other two cards in the hand with the ace and deuce. (eg. 2345n compared to A278n)
• 3.The hand with the deuce and trey can have a better chance to make a winning flush than the hand with the ace and a deuce. Double suited starting hands make more flushes than single suited starting hands and rainbow hands don't make any flushes at all.

Any of these three factors alone is not usually enough to make up the difference between the strength of a starting hand with ace-deuce and a starting hand with deuce-trey. But a combination of #1+#3 or #2+#3 often is.

For example, based on simulations, in a nine or ten player game,
2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is a better starting hand than
<font color="white">_</font>
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Both of those starting hands are generally very playable, although not exceptionally strong. Based on simulation results, the A-2-6-6-n is expected to win more often for low, but the 2-3-Q-Q-d is expected to scoop substantially more often and also figures to win more overall.

Buzz

[chaos]

Buzz,

I would add a couple more hands to the playable list that by score alone would be marginal:
2345n
2346n

I think the straight making possibilities offer enough high potential to compensate for not being suited.

[Buzz]

Chaos - Thanks. I agree.

Buzz