QQ - I keep bettin'. He keeps calin'. Overplayed?

GrunchCan · #1 07-14-2005, 11:45 AM

Some differences between limit and NL are almost ironic. On the one hand, in NL it seems like you often need to be even more aggressive thant in limit sometimes. But in other situations it seems like you need to slow down when you never would in limit.

Here's one example. Overplayed?

(PS: I didn't notice when I sat down, but this table is PL)

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $25 BB .10/.25 (9 handed) converter

MP2 ($24.75)
MP3 ($41)
CO ($26.60)
Button ($24.15)
Hero ($26.25)
BB ($23.90)
UTG ($34.75)
UTG+1 ($5.40)
MP1 ($12.30)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero (poster) raises to $1.4, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP1 folds, CO calls $1.25.

Flop: ($3.75) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $2.75, CO calls $2.75.

Turn: ($9.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $8.8, CO calls $8.80.

River: ($26.85) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero goes all-in for 13.20, CO calls $13.20.

Final Pot: $40.05

TheWorstPlayer · #2 07-14-2005, 11:53 AM

There are definitely some differences between limit and no limit, but one thing that is 100% the same is that hand reading is very important. I think it would be very helpful for you and for this discussion if you gave us your hand range for your opponent on each street.

Rosie5 · #3 07-14-2005, 11:54 AM

what do you think he's calling you with?

Check the turn or river. He doesn't know how big you are so he's probably not gonna push all in, he'll probably make a small bet

Your overplaying is probably profitable in the long run, but sometimes they have kings AA or some garbage that made 2 pr or trips.

his turn call would be setting off fireworks in my head

GrunchCan · #4 07-14-2005, 12:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There are definitely some differences between limit and no limit, but one thing that is 100% the same is that hand reading is very important. I think it would be very helpful for you and for this discussion if you gave us your hand range for your opponent on each street.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just sat down. This might have been by 1st or 2nd hand. I don't know this opponent from before.

But I put him on something like a flush draw with high cards or a wired pair. When he just called the turn bet, I was thinking 'must not think he has the best hand' which made me think I did. I went for value on the river, thinking he had a lower PP. I pushed, expecting a call.

This may seem an elementary question, but what would you put an unknown opponent on given the turn call? Also, was my turn bet correct given my read, or not given my read?

GrunchCan · #5 07-14-2005, 12:10 PM

One more thing.

The range of hands I had him on did not include a gutshot with a flush draw. which is what he actually had: 76[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I discounted the straight possibility after he called my flop bet becasue I wouldn't think that he would call my PFR with such junk. What kinds of hands would he have called the big PFR with that connect with that flop to make a straight? I certianly wouldn't, at least not with so few opponents & OOP.

But now it occurs to me that villan's PF call might have been perfect. I made a solid PF from SB, which (in limit, anyway) usually indicates a big PP. Villan could have realized this and called, thinking, 'if i hit one of my hands, I can get his whole stack'

Is this correct thinking? Should I be playing this way too?

DWarrior · #6 07-14-2005, 12:24 PM

Well, if you put him on a flush draw, slowplayed trips, or slowplayed overpair on the flop, the turn filled the one hand you could beat (the flush draw), which left you with an overpair. The only two you could beat are JJ and TT.

I'd slow down once the flush hit the board, and on the river all you could beat was JJ or TT.

This used to get me a lot, I'd go on betting with the idea that "my hand is good, so I must bet". Now I try to think along the lines of what the opponent might have. On the flop, as I said, I'd put him on a decent overpair, or a flush draw. When the flush came, there's really no reason to bet.

Also, I don't know if this has any signifficance, but I think that if there is a guy at the table who is taking notes, then if I bet with flush draw on board and check when the flush is made, I can do the same when I'm the one drawing to a flush (semi-bluff, then check it off), and I'll know it won't be obvious whether I have a pair or the flush. I guess this doesn't matter at lower stakes, but I try to think that way, so that my slowplays don't become "reverse man" (bet when you have crap, check when you have a monster), this way I think I'm at least somewhat unpredictable.

michaliv · #7 07-14-2005, 12:34 PM

The preflop and flop bets are good. On the turn I would have probably bet 1/2 pot. If he calls that I would check the river and see what he does.

TheWorstPlayer · #8 07-14-2005, 12:42 PM

Here is how my thought process would work to put him on a hand:
Preflop, he limps after a bunch of limpers - he probably has a small pocket pair or some suited something.
Flop, he calls my bet on a low flop with a straight and flush draw on board - he is either slowplaying trips or a full house, he has something marginal like a low overpair and isn't sure where he stands, or he has a draw (straight or more likely flush)

So now on the turn, I am (still) behind trips, I am behind a flush draw (which just hit), I am behind 55 and now I am behind 99 as well. Not TOO many things I am beating now. Most likely hand I am still ahead of is something like 88 or TT. Outside possibility of something like 56 or 54.

So, since I think his most likely hand on the flop was either trips/full house, or flush draw, I think I am probably behind on the turn. In addition, opponents here are quite passive, particularly with marginal hands. I would be extremely surprised if someone, for instance, bet out strong when checked to if they held 56. I would expect them to check behind. So, unless I had a read of someone being very aggro (in which I would c/r the turn all-in) I am going to c/f this turn. There just isn't very much I'm beating once the flush hits and the hands that I AM beating I expect him to check behind with on the turn almost 100% of the time.

Pocket Trips · #9 07-14-2005, 12:52 PM

I have also had problems over playing my big PP's when i make an over sized raise PF and a pot sized bet on the flop and get called both times this starts to set of warning bells now... I used to continue betting hoping to induce a fold but if he called 2 large bets most $25 nl players aren't going to muck no matter what you do.

My question is how do you handle slowing down on the turn, especially when OOP and villian makes a large bet himself b/c of your implied weakness?

If it is a ragged board and you have an over pair do you call him down assuming he is overplaying TPTK?

If the turn card completes a str8 or flush draw do you fold to a large bet if the opp did not show any previous aggression in the hand?

Is a check raise an option here if you think the opp will lay down a hand like a ragged 2 pair if the are str8 and flush draws on the board?

DWarrior · #10 07-14-2005, 01:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have also had problems over playing my big PP's when i make an over sized raise PF and a pot sized bet on the flop and get called both times this starts to set of warning bells now... I used to continue betting hoping to induce a fold but if he called 2 large bets most $25 nl players aren't going to muck no matter what you do.

My question is how do you handle slowing down on the turn, especially when OOP and villian makes a large bet himself b/c of your implied weakness?

If it is a ragged board and you have an over pair do you call him down assuming he is overplaying TPTK?

If the turn card completes a str8 or flush draw do you fold to a large bet if the opp did not show any previous aggression in the hand?

Is a check raise an option here if you think the opp will lay down a hand like a ragged 2 pair if the are str8 and flush draws on the board?

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you hope to induce a bluff by betting the whole way? I don't think $25NL and $50NL players bluff-raise, the field seems to be extremely passive.

Anyway, as I said before, my counter to the perceived weakness of slowing down is to do the same thing when I semi-bluff with a draw, or if in this case I held the 55.