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Old 12-19-2005, 12:32 AM
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Default PLO postflop newb questions.

Long time lurker first time poster, I know you guys get a lot of newb questions here so sorry in advance, but any thoughts you have on the following ideas would be greatly appreciated.

8 way straight draws

Ciaffone says not to get too involved with just an 8 way straight draw. So when do you play these hands? Do you call with just an 8 way straight draw on a rainbow flop getting 2 to 1? 3 to 1? If there are two suited cards out, what conditions merit a call?

Top Set
getting money in on a non straight flop isnt a problem, but what about the turn when the straight seems to get there, I obviously cant call a pot sized bet with no other redraws, but can I call getting 3 to 1 if I'm pretty positive at least one player has the straight? I'm still unclear of the verdict set in that recent post where a player had JJJ against a straight on the turn. Basically if there's a 10% chance it's a bluff, can I call, assuming no real implied odds if the board pairs?

What about hitting top set on a three flush flop, call a pot sized bet on the flop, what sized bets can I profitably call on the turn assuming little implied odds?

These questions might be too vague, so please ask me to specify if appropriate. Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 12-19-2005, 01:22 AM
RoundTower RoundTower is offline
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Default Re: PLO postflop newb questions.

Hi ocelot,
It wouldn't be very helpful to answer "It depends". Of course it depends, and of course you should play the hand one way in some situations and a different way in another. I won't ask you to "specify if appropriate": if an interesting hand comes up why not post the particulars here and ask this forum. But here are some things you should consider in those situations, that might swing the balance one way or another. Some of them depend on the players, some of them on the hand itself:

If you have an 8-way/up and down straight draw:
How much money is there left to bet? Are your draws to the nuts? Can you pick up a nice backdoor draw? If you call, is there someone behind you who is likely to raise? Are you up against a loose player who will definitely call you with a set, or maybe a tight player who will check and fold the turn if a scare card comes, or at least give you a free card? If you hit the nuts on fourth street, how vulnerable is your hand to a bigger straight coming on fifth street? (56 on a 34K7 board is substantially different from 56 on a 478K board.) Is it likely someone else is calling with a draw that dominates you? If you raise now, is it likely everyone will go away?

FWIW, I almost always call with a hand like this getting 3-1, if there is no two-flush and I am in position and it is not likely to be raised behind me. I call getting 2-1 if some of the factors above are in my favour. I expect this is looser than most people here will play, so you might be better off making sure some of the factors above are in your favour.

If there is a two-flush, almost always muck the eight-out straight draw. Often muck a slightly better wrap. Again, I like to take one off with a marginal draw here, something like 567 on a 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], if I think my opponent has top set here, but probably not if it was 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] when he could well have top set and the nut flush draw. This draw looks excellent, much better than the 8-out draw, but some people will fold this every time.

Top set on the turn:
Again you want to consider some of the above factors, particularly if you are likely to be able to bluff a flush card or other scare card on the river. If you have no implied odds, that must mean you have some chance of bluffing him if the nuts change. 3-1 is not quite enough to call heads up if you know your opponent has the straight, but it's very close. If there's any chance your opponent is bluffing you will usually have to call here getting 3-1 or close if it is all in.

Hope this helped. Many people here will tell you that you need the nuts, preferably the nuts going upwards, or at least 16 outs twice, to commit money to the pot. Ignore them.

Sorry for the long reply, but I hope it gives you some things to think about.

RoundTower.
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Old 12-19-2005, 01:45 AM
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Default Re: PLO postflop newb questions.

[ QUOTE ]
8 way straight draws

Ciaffone says not to get too involved with just an 8 way straight draw. So when do you play these hands? Do you call with just an 8 way straight draw on a rainbow flop getting 2 to 1? 3 to 1? If there are two suited cards out, what conditions merit a call?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think he means don't call pot sized bets with them. An 8 way straight draw has a 1/5 chance of being the nuts after the turn, but it's uber-vulnerable since only 2 of those cards keep it rainbow (assuming you don't have backdoor flush draws). The key is, don't think nearly as much of them as you would in HE unless you have something else to go with it.

Also, Ciaffone's book (like most poker books) is probably meant for higher stakes games where people don't make 1/3 pot bets (or smaller) on the flop. He's probably not even considering the possablity that someone will make that kind of bet.
[ QUOTE ]
Top Set
... but what about the turn when the straight seems to get there ... can I call getting 3 to 1 if I'm pretty positive at least one player has the straight? I'm still unclear of the verdict set in that recent post where a player had JJJ against a straight on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe the verdict is that a call is generally justified if you have slightly less than 3 to 1 odds against most players - but not known nut peddlers.
[ QUOTE ]
What about hitting top set on a three flush flop, call a pot sized bet on the flop, what sized bets can I profitably call on the turn assuming little implied odds?

[/ QUOTE ]
The board will eventually pair about 38% of the time when you have a set. Slightly more than half the time the pair will not come until the river (approx 18% turn/both and 20% river only).

Calling is dangerous unless you are on a passive table that tends to call these bets on the flop (and not raise). This is common at lower limits.
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  #4  
Old 12-19-2005, 02:55 AM
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Default Re: PLO postflop newb questions.

because if you have the draw the turn always (okay it just seems to) pairs and you just invested a lot of $ in a pot you have to think about giving up.
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  #5  
Old 12-19-2005, 09:19 PM
RoundTower RoundTower is offline
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Default Re: PLO postflop newb questions.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, Ciaffone's book (like most poker books) is probably meant for higher stakes games where people don't make 1/3 pot bets (or smaller) on the flop. He's probably not even considering the possablity that someone will make that kind of bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 to 1 means it is a pot bet to you. 3 to 1 means it is a pot bet and a call. I was also only considering pot bets, or close to, in my reply, but I think it applies just as well to small stakes.
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  #6  
Old 12-20-2005, 07:49 AM
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Default Re: PLO postflop newb questions.

Thanks a lot fellas.

looking forward to reading more of your posts etc. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
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