Flop Decision: 65s - Page 4

baronzeus · #31 07-17-2005, 12:00 AM

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Edit: UTGs first orbit and Button is very donkish

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Button calls, Hero...

Whats my line? Call
or 3bet?

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This is a bad board to bet on. He's gonna raise, and you only wanna pay 1 bet to see the turn here. You can raise the turn if you want.

There's such a good chacne that you're already beat that you're probably drawing to something like 9 outs here.

shadow29 · #32 07-17-2005, 12:06 AM

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This is a bad board to bet on.

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This board is exactly the one on which I want to bet.

Nfinity · #33 07-17-2005, 12:08 AM

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This is a bad board to bet on.

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This board is exactly the one on which I want to bet.

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Agreed. We have to find some way to protect our hand, and if it doesn't pan out the way we want it to, then at least we are padding the pot for our draw.

Shillx · #34 07-17-2005, 12:13 AM

This is a bad board to bet on.

Well yeah maybe but not always. If the villian is dumb enough to raise AK on this flop then betting out is badass. He knocks out the button and leaves himself drawing HU to just 6 outs. If he would never raise the flop with AK or QJ or whatever then it makes no sense to bet into him since then we leave ourselves drawing HU to 10 outs against his TT or AA. If he will only raise our bet with a better hand, we should either check/call or maybe check/raise for value since he will bet AK or QJ when we check to him.

In general, people will be quicker to raise the flop with overs when they see you as an aggressive player since their overs still might be good. So if we have a pretty LAGgish image, I would like a bet more then if we have a cautious image. If we are seen as someone who would only bet a pair or better, why would he raise with overs?

Brad

Nfinity · #35 07-17-2005, 12:22 AM

Nice Post.

I hadn't quite realized how bad it would be to raise 2 overs in this situation.

baronzeus · #36 07-17-2005, 12:26 AM

If you bet here, get raise, and call, you should stop-n-go and fold if raised on the turn except against the most aggressive of opponents.

Maybe I'm a bit biased here because I don't raise here with just overcards and I fold the turn UI against most opponents. I would raise here with an overpair. If I am OP, I'd rather just have the raiser bet into me until the river with his overs rather than get scared by my bet here.

Maybe since it's 3-handed and not HU the things I said don't apply.

shadow29 · #37 07-17-2005, 12:27 AM

I check/raise this turn. The board is not so scary and even a 1/2 player can read hands well enough to tell what you have when you donkbet. He will not raise overs here. I've made my hand and I want everyone to put two big bets in the pot.

Since this is 6-max, overs are quite likely to bet again. In my experience, short-handed players don't like to take free cards with overcards. Rather, they bet the turn hoping to fold out the player with position and then check behind on the river.

Thus, the best way of getting 2 big bets in on one street is through check-raising. Donking will get us 2 bets only when villain has an overpair, and in my experience big overpairs will 3-bet a check/raise with an overpair. If villain has a hand like TT, he'll call the c/r and again on the turn. However, when we donk, villain is likely just to call down.

Those are my thoughts, anyways.

Nfinity has some good thoughts and is showing a good thinking process, but I disagree with all his points.

A: Very doubtful that it gets checked through. Overcards will likely bet again, hoping to pick up the pot.

B: Not likely that any 1/2 SH player is folding to a turn c/r. Who cares if they know the strength of our hand? (If, of course, I grant the premise that they know what a turn c/r means). They've put in two bets already and will likely talk themselves into calling again on the river with overpairs.

C: See my discussion about overcards calling vs. betting and overpairs.

Of course, I could be totally wrong. So hopefully no one will judge this post on my "reputation" (I honestly didn't know I had one [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]) alone.

Livin', Laughin', Learnin',

Big John [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

baronzeus · #38 07-17-2005, 12:27 AM

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Nice Post.

I hadn't quite realized how bad it would be to raise 2 overs in this situation.

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You should read Nate tha Great's challenge on finding a situation where raising with JUST over cards (no straight or flush draws) is +EV.

shadow29 · #39 07-17-2005, 12:28 AM

I want to bet out the flop for two main reasons:

A) I might have the best hand (value bet).

B) I really want to get this pot heads up.

There are reasons relating to B) that I'm not going to type up.

edit- turn --> flop (in bold)

baronzeus · #40 07-17-2005, 12:30 AM

This is read dependent, but if I think I can get villain to bet the turn AND the river with just an over pair, I check/call the turn and check/raise the river.