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  #41  
Old 12-19-2005, 02:10 PM
MaxPowerPoker MaxPowerPoker is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

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but why does God ask for such sacrifices. it really is unecessary. the god of christians and catholics seems to be a very vindictive god. he demands extreme sacrifices even from his most devout followers. when people do not do his will he rains down fire onto them (sodom)or floods the earth. yet at the same time he demands us to be morale and law abiding. at times he can be very contradicting.

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You are pointing out consistency and not contradiction here. The fact that Sodom was destroyed was a display of God's judgement for sin. God was moral and just to destroy the wicked inhabitants of Sodom.

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sometimes he says and eye for and eye than he says to turn the other cheek or whoever has not sinned may cast the first stone. why cant this god demand people to be just and morale. why does he need the extreme sacrifice of anybody.

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Again, pardoning sin without payment may be merciful, but it is not moral and just. God is perfectly merciful while at the same time being perfectly moral and just which is why sin cannot go unpunished.

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in your $10000 example people can make up for their sins by going to church and confessing.

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No they can't! The only think that "makes up" for their sin is the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

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doing a zillion hail mary's and our fathers. why cant that be enough. its the same as someone admitting they stole $10000 dollars and paying restitution in the form of prison time or monetary reimbursment. you say god cannot pardon sin without payment. why is this so. when someone does you wrong you have to choices to forgive or not to forgive. if someone doesnt accept that they did you wrong you probally wont forgive them. if they open up their heart and ask for forgiveness shouldnt that be all that is needed.

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This is where your concept of forgiveness is at odds with God's. The wrath of God burns against sin. He detests it. This is a fact that cannot be denied. We all sin and therefore the wrath of God burns against us. At the same time he provided the perfect sacrifice for sin. This is an awesome act of love that instead of justly punishing us for our own sin (which he must do if he is righteous), he places the sins of all who have faith in Christ onto his own son and he bears our punishment and the righteousness of God is upheld.

Consider this from Romans:
through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

-Zapp
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  #42  
Old 12-19-2005, 02:24 PM
MaxPowerPoker MaxPowerPoker is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

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Similarly, God cannot simply pardon sin without payment of the penalty.

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Yes, he can.

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You contradict scripture:

(Mat 26:28) for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

(Eph 1:7) In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

(Heb 9:22) Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
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  #43  
Old 12-19-2005, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

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KipBond, did Christians beat you up when you were a kid? Seriously, don't hold it against all of us just because you were routinely beaten up as a kid.

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Yes, they treated me like the Jews treated Jesus. It was brutal. They said it was to please God... and who am I to argue with that logic. To this day, I still drink vinegar... it's horrible, but it reminds me of God's grace & mercy.
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  #44  
Old 12-19-2005, 03:25 PM
hmkpoker hmkpoker is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

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You contradict scripture:

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Scripture contradicts itself.
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  #45  
Old 12-19-2005, 03:34 PM
txag007 txag007 is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

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Similarly, God cannot simply pardon sin without payment of the penalty.

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Yes, he can. God is all-powerful. Are you telling me that, even if he willed it, he couldn't remove the sin from a person and let them into heaven?

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You are missing a key point concerning the nature of God. God is so righteous that He is the ultimate defintion of good. Therefore, anything that separates us from God is a sin.

There are certain things that even God cannot do. Sinning is one of those things. Having been born into sin, we cannot enter the presence of God (Heaven) without the sacrifice of Jesus. Were it not for Jesus, we would be left to etnernal separation from God (Hell).

Does this help it make more sense?
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  #46  
Old 12-19-2005, 03:39 PM
MaxPowerPoker MaxPowerPoker is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

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You contradict scripture:

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Scripture contradicts itself.

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I reject your assertion. Would you care to demonstrate it?

-Zapp
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  #47  
Old 12-19-2005, 05:23 PM
Bork Bork is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

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The only think that "makes up" for their sin is the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ.


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Again, pardoning sin without payment may be merciful, but it is not moral and just. God is perfectly merciful while at the same time being perfectly moral and just which is why sin cannot go unpunished.

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Do you not see the contradiction here? Sins must be punished because thats the moral and just thing to do. Oh wait just kidding we crucified some innocent guy so sins dont have to be punished anymore...

How could a man's sacrafice possibly shake the foundations of morality.

Also you seem to be putting limitations on God's power in that he cannot do anything unjust or sinful. Well if he is going around changing morality so child rapists can get into heaven thats pretty unjust if you ask me.

I contend that if an action was a sin before jesus's sacrafice that same action must be a sin after, and they morally require the same punishment.
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  #48  
Old 12-19-2005, 05:39 PM
MaxPowerPoker MaxPowerPoker is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

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Do you not see the contradiction here? Sins must be punished because thats the moral and just thing to do. Oh wait just kidding we crucified some innocent guy so sins dont have to be punished anymore...

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I didn't say that. Sins do have to be punished. All sin without exception. You will pay for your own sins apart from faith in Christ. To all who believe, their sins were nailed to the cross with Jesus and paid for in full.

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How could a man's sacrafice possibly shake the foundations of morality.

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This man is the son of God--fully man and fully God which qualifies him to stand in our place and live the perfect life as a man and to forgive our sins based on faith in him.

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Also you seem to be putting limitations on God's power in that he cannot do anything unjust or sinful.

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This is what he reveales about himself. It is not a restriction that *I* am putting on him.

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Well if he is going around changing morality so child rapists can get into heaven thats pretty unjust if you ask me.

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Again, he is not "changing" morality he is upholding it. He counts faith in Christ as righteousness. And all who have a saving faith will live righteous (although imperfect) lives. Being a child rapist is not a mark of someone who has been born of God through faith in the gospel.
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  #49  
Old 12-19-2005, 05:55 PM
12AX7 12AX7 is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

Well, I haven't read all the responses. And I don't really know anything about religion.

But, I have often question that statement, "For god gave his only begotten son for our sins"... or whatever it is.

Since god supposedly created everything, including sin, why does sin have to be paid for? And who was god paying for our sins.

The whole statement seems flawed to me. But then I find many of man's dogmas to be this way. Just flowery speech that is trying to sell you something. Basically marketing speak that is trying to overcome your "objections". Come to think of it much of the current psyco-farmacological arguments sound the same way. LOL! "Sure your kid need Ritalin, he has ADD". LOL!

Right...

So it would seem preachers, psychiatrists and clergy are all the same thing. People that screw with your head to take your money.

LOL!
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  #50  
Old 12-19-2005, 06:23 PM
Bork Bork is offline
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Default Re: Why did Jesus have to die?

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I didn't say that. Sins do have to be punished. All sin without exception. You will pay for your own sins apart from faith in Christ. To all who believe, their sins were nailed to the cross with Jesus and paid for in full.

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Fair enough, however I don't see how my sins could be paid for by somebody else. It seems like the opposite of what is just and moral. If I murder a kid would it be just for somebody else to be punished in my place out of love for me? I think not, even if that somebody is God.

On top of this why does faith in Christ make it so one gets all of his sins paid for by Christ, but those without faith MUST pay themselves? How can a simple belief or non-belief allow us to defer our just punishment to somebody who was punished over 2000 years ago.

To me this just sounds like people trying to scare other people to follow their religion through threat of punishment, and the allure of not being morally responisble for the bad things we do as long as we have faith.

Take the example of two men, both live lives full of terrible sin the only difference is one near the end of his life has faith in what the bible says about jesus, the other does not. The first gets the best possible reward the second gets the worst possible punishment. Why should an apparently morally irrelevant faith swing ones treatment the maximum possible amount.

Do you think it is just for people that speed on the highway to be be burned at the stake? Obviously punishment and reward should be at least a bit proportial to the seriousness of the actions. This business of faith making all the difference completely contradicts this. Faith in jesus is not the best thing somebody can do and non-faith is far from the worst. Also it is questionable whether many can even choose to have faith.
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