$22 You make this C-bet?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button (t1500)
Hero (t1500)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)
CO (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t20, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t60</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t180</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG folds, CO calls t120.

Flop: (t400) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t300</font>

Yeah I do everytime.

[mosdef]

You don't need to bet so large. You can achieve the same result by betting about 1/2 the pot, and you'll lose less when he has the K.

[pergesu]

First of all I reraise bigger preflop, probably to like 250. But anyway yeah, a CB here is good, as the king high flop hits a high % of raising hands and he'll likely fold unless he has a king himself.

However I bet smaller on the flop, 200-225. First of all this keeps the pot quite a bit smaller. When your bet is called, the pot is equal to your stack, which is going to make things tough on you. Basically making a mistake here would be really bad - folding the best hand is horrible, and getting stacked is as well. The problem is somewhat lessened by the fact that you still have a deep stack...but you should at least understand that making an error here is quite bad. Finally, this may seem to contradict my first bit of advice about raising more preflop (because then you end up with a big pot anyway), but the difference is that you're almost certainly a favorite preflop and should be happy to get some money in. You should be more inclined to play small pots when you're unsure of where you stand, and either fold or commit chips when you're pretty sure of where you are (folding when you think you're behind, putting chips in when you think you're ahead, of course [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). Finally (again), a smaller bet here will often get a call from a hand like JJ or TT that might often fold to the larger bet you made. The larger bet allows your opponent to play pretty easily, check-raising hard with AK or folding anything smaller. So you've allowed him to play perfectly when there are a lot of (your) chips in the middle.

If he calls here, his range of hands is probably AK/JJ/TT, maybe a lower PP if he's aggro preflop. He almost certainly would have reraised AA/KK preflop, and you have two of the queens so it's obviously unlikely he holds the other ones. I would check behind on the turn, and then call a smallish bet on the river, or make a VB of my own if checked to, because the turn check will soften him up for a call with a hand that you beat that he would have otherwise folded to continued pressure on the turn.

Hopefully this has made some sense. It's a bit rambly, but my excuse is that it's really early and my burps still taste like Heineken.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all I reraise bigger preflop, probably to like 250. But anyway yeah, a CB here is good, as the king high flop hits a high % of raising hands and he'll likely fold unless he has a king himself.

However I bet smaller on the flop, 200-225. First of all this keeps the pot quite a bit smaller. When your bet is called, the pot is equal to your stack, which is going to make things tough on you. Basically making a mistake here would be really bad - folding the best hand is horrible, and getting stacked is as well. The problem is somewhat lessened by the fact that you still have a deep stack...but you should at least understand that making an error here is quite bad. Finally, this may seem to contradict my first bit of advice about raising more preflop (because then you end up with a big pot anyway), but the difference is that you're almost certainly a favorite preflop and should be happy to get some money in. You should be more inclined to play small pots when you're unsure of where you stand, and either fold or commit chips when you're pretty sure of where you are (folding when you think you're behind, putting chips in when you think you're ahead, of course [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). Finally (again), a smaller bet here will often get a call from a hand like JJ or TT that might often fold to the larger bet you made. The larger bet allows your opponent to play pretty easily, check-raising hard with AK or folding anything smaller. So you've allowed him to play perfectly when there are a lot of (your) chips in the middle.

If he calls here, his range of hands is probably AK/JJ/TT, maybe a lower PP if he's aggro preflop. He almost certainly would have reraised AA/KK preflop, and you have two of the queens so it's obviously unlikely he holds the other ones. I would check behind on the turn, and then call a smallish bet on the river, or make a VB of my own if checked to, because the turn check will soften him up for a call with a hand that you beat that he would have otherwise folded to continued pressure on the turn.

Hopefully this has made some sense. It's a bit rambly, but my excuse is that it's really early and my burps still taste like Heineken.

[/ QUOTE ]

an intellegent post from pergesu????? what next? one from me, or dare i say.....skipper?

[Melchiades]

Checking behind on the turn will be hard though perg, considering hero is in the SB. I bet 250 here I think.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Given the scenario you describe...

[ QUOTE ]
If he calls here, his range of hands is probably AK/JJ/TT

[/ QUOTE ]

... how do you respond to aggression on the turn? Is it conceivable that JJ/TT would come out firing?

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
an intellegent post from pergesu????? what next? one from me, or dare i say.....skipper?

[/ QUOTE ]
I make lots of intelligent posts. There are just too many stupid questions here that aren't worth replying to.

[ QUOTE ]
Checking behind on the turn will be hard though perg, considering hero is in the SB. I bet 250 here I think.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bah, perg is a retard. Yes I see the irony in stating this immediately following my rebuttal to beef.

[ QUOTE ]
... how do you respond to aggression on the turn? Is it conceivable that JJ/TT would come out firing?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you have to check-fold the turn. He's already showed some strength (albeit not a lot) by raising and calling a reraise preflop, then calling your CB on the flop. He could fire with JJ/TT on the turn if he's pretty aggressive, but I don't think it's particularly likely. I'd definitely just c/f unless he made a very small bet...then my FPS would kick in and I'd probably c/r (but I can assure you that's not the right play).

[Snarf]

At an aggressive table I bet out enough to make anything but a king fold.

At a more passive table...

Slansky talks about it...if your hand is likely to
a) not improve to the best hand if its already beat
b) not be outdrawn if its currently the best hand

Then he reccomends 'slowplaying'

You get more value from lesser hands while not losing more to the hands that beat you.

[pergesu]

Sure looks like the first hand of the tourney. So you wouldn't know if this is a passive or aggressive table, unless you've played with a lot of the players before.

I think there are two ways you can approach this. First is to bet large, and be pretty sure you're beat when you're called. Nothing really wrong with that. The second way is to bet less, and not be entirely sure of where you're at when you're called. I think the second way is advantageous because it allows you to get more chips when you're ahead by expanding the range of hands he could logically call with, and lose less when you're behind. Seems like a reasonable formula for getting the most value out of this hand.

Betting larger tells you where you're at immediately..but it's not like you need to know that. "Defining" your hand is overrated. Do you really know more about your hand when it goes Hero: Bet Big Opponent: Call vs H: Bet Small O: Call, H: Check O: Bet? That should tell you the same thing (you're beat), and cost you less doing it. You'll also know when you're ahead and can make a VB on the river.