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  #1  
Old 09-16-2004, 10:52 PM
w_raedy99 w_raedy99 is offline
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Default Is this play too aggressive?

Please tell me what you think of this play.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button (t565)
<font color="C00000">SB (t35)</font>
BB (t825)
UTG (t2630)
<font color="C00000">Hero (t775)</font>
<font color="C00000">MP1 (t740)</font>
MP2 (t785)
CO (t1645)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, Hero calls t15, MP1 calls t15, MP2 calls t15, CO calls t15, Button calls t15, <font color="CC3333">SB raises to t35 (All-In)</font>, BB calls t20, UTG calls t20, Hero calls t20, MP1 calls t20, MP2 calls t20, CO calls t20, Button calls t20.

Flop: (t280) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(8 players, 1 all-in)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets t300</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, BB folds, UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t740 (All-In)</font>, MP1 calls t405 (All-In).

Turn: (t1725) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

River: (t1725) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players, 3 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1725
<font color="green">Main Pot: t280 (t280), between SB, Hero and MP1.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by MP1 (t280).</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: t1410 (t1410), between Hero and MP1.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by MP1 (t1410).</font>
<font color="green">Pot 3: t35 (t35), returned to Hero.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB has Qc 4c (one pair, tens).
Hero has Kh Ah (one pair, tens).
MP1 has Ac Tc (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: MP1 wins t1690. Hero wins t35. </font>

It was early on and blinds were low, and this is definitely a more aggressive play than I think I normally make but I decided to go for it for several reasons:

(1) I was playing a $10+1 and therefore was willing to play a little looser than normal
(2) I figured there was a good chance he was betting a flush draw.

Given these factors I decided to go for it. At first I thought it might actually be a bad call, but then when I thought about it more and counted my outs, 9 hearts, 4 kings, and 4 aces without knowing what he has and I think it might have been more reasonable. Then consulting twodimes i saw the statistics were:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=516495
pokenum -h ah kh - ac tc -- th 6h 3d
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 3d Th 6h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ah Kh 461 46.57 529 53.43 0 0.00 0.466
Ac Tc 529 53.43 461 46.57 0 0.00 0.534

And even though those odds are actually higher than I thought they might be knowing he had TPTK I am not sure if it was too agressive or not. Also, do you consider this a good call with TPTK? I most likely would've have bet the exact same way with an overpair.

Any thoughts?

Will
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  #2  
Old 09-16-2004, 10:56 PM
durron597 durron597 is offline
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Default Re: Is this play too aggressive?

It's not bad, but realize he will never fold unless he was on a total bluff to begin with; he bet half his stack. Which means he probably has something.

I think you would have been better off raising more preflop instead of just calling the allin. I would say to at least 100.
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  #3  
Old 09-16-2004, 11:11 PM
RobGW RobGW is offline
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Default Re: Is this play too aggressive?

I like the limp preflop knowing that you will get several callers and the SB will probaly go all in but why didn't you reraise at that point? Once villian bets half his stack you have to know he isnt going to fold, and you have about 14-15 outs which is almost a coin flip. Do you really want to do that? I would have reraised preflop and semi bluffed the flop.
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  #4  
Old 09-16-2004, 11:36 PM
reecelights reecelights is offline
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Default Re: Is this play too aggressive?

[ QUOTE ]
Given these factors I decided to go for it. At first I thought it might actually be a bad call, but then when I thought about it more and counted my outs, 9 hearts, 4 kings, and 4 aces without knowing what he has and I think it might have been more reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you miscalculated your outs. You don't have 4 A and 4 K, only 3. Also, when I read it (before looking at the results), I put him on AT or a set. If he had AT, your A was dead, meaning you had 3 K and 9 hearts for 12 outs. This was the twodimes calculation you did, about a 48% win rate, meaning you could only catch a K, a heart, or running QJ to win. If, however, he had a set of 7s or Ts, you lose one out of the flush draw, lose As and Ks as outs because if you catch runners he makes a boat, and would have to catch running QJ to make a straight or straight flush, making you a 3-1 underdog.

As for his call...at 10/1 he is likely to misread you and assume his TPTK is the best hand and call, in which case, it's a bad call. If he's a good player and doesn't know you, it's also very possible he puts you on exactly the hand you had or at the 10/1 level, assumes you're not very good yourself and puts you on KT, QT, or JT, especially this early in the tourney when he knows there are fish in the water.

As for whether or not it's too aggressive? Probably, yes. You do have a good chance of doubling up now, but you have an equally bad chance at being busted. Also, if you do make your hand, others are likely to call you later on and suck out on you assuming you are semi-bluffing with an unmade hand. If you make this bet with a made hand, your push gets more respect later, making it easier to steal with a semi-bluff.

Save the coin flips for the bubble and beyond.
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  #5  
Old 09-16-2004, 11:51 PM
w_raedy99 w_raedy99 is offline
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Default Re: Is this play too aggressive?

Thanks to everyone for the replies. Yes about 2 minutes after I posted it I realized I miscounted my outs, but didn't think it would be 'right' to fix it now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] As I stated, I usually am not this aggressive at all, and really thought he was on a flush draw considering the way I see a lot of people play at the $10 tables, but I agree, if I am looking to perhaps play at a little looser at these levels, this is still most likely not a good play.

Looking back, I agree that after the raise pre-flop, I should've really pushed then. Question then becomes, if the person calls a bet of say 180-190 or higher with AT, how do I play this post-flop? If I show more aggression here does he more likely put me on an over pair?

Again, I appreciate all of the comments and am actually somewhat embaressed to show what I consider to be a poor hand by me, but how else do you learn right?

Will
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  #6  
Old 09-16-2004, 11:54 PM
durron597 durron597 is offline
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Default Re: Is this play too aggressive?

Just remember this: IN GENERAL (THIS IS NOT ALWAYS TRUE) you are better off raising your big hands preflop than you are calling with them. Just try to keep that in the back of your mind.

(AJ is not a big hand)
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  #7  
Old 09-17-2004, 12:41 AM
CrisBrown CrisBrown is offline
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Default Re: Is this play too aggressive?

Hi w-raedy,

First, I agree with the posters who said you should've raised more pre-flop. AK is only about a 2:1 favorite over a lower suited connector; you're letting too many people have the right odds to chase you.

Second:

[ QUOTE ]
(1) I was playing a $10+1 and therefore was willing to play a little looser than normal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you play looser in what stands to be a looser, more wild-and-crazy game? Go ahead and play tight poker, and bet for value rather than bluffs or semi-bluffs. The weak players will pay off your made hands and made draws, and you're probably going to have to show down a best hand to win a pot.

[ QUOTE ]
(2) I figured there was a good chance he was betting a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

You hold two hearts. There are two hearts on board. That makes it much less likely that your opponent is also on a flush draw. What's more, if he is on a flush draw, he is holding two of your outs. That makes his hand weaker, unless you decide that his flush draw is as naked as yours is. If he has even bottom pair, you're in trouble, because he's holding almost 1/4 of your outs in his hand. If he has <font color="red">9</font> [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="red">8</font> [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], you're in even worse shape. Now you're down to five outs -- <font color="red">6</font> [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or <font color="red">J</font> [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] make him a straight flush -- and he has a non-flush straight draw to go with his straight flush draw.

So ... what this comes down to is a "read" that, despite your being able to see four of the nine hearts, he is on a naked heart flush draw, with no pair, and not 98. That's not a "read." That's a "wish."

Cris
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  #8  
Old 09-17-2004, 01:11 AM
w_raedy99 w_raedy99 is offline
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Default Re: Is this play too aggressive?

Cris,

Thank you very much for your post. Although it is rather direct, I think you are exactly right. I was more "wishing" for a certain thing than being realistic and that is obviously going to lead me down the wrong path.

I agree with everyone about raising pre-flop, I usually do play much more aggressive pre-flop. In the early rounds with small blinds I will not usually raise when there is only around 25-45 in the pot and that is all I will win if I raise, however in this case with that many people in the pot I definitely should've been stronger on the raise.

I also agree with your comment about playing my usual tight game at the lower levels but part of the reason I am playing at the lower level as well is because I am trying to work on my post-flop play and trying to gauge how to play against what I consider really bad players (I see a lot in the B&amp;M tourney I play at too). Perhaps this is a bad strategy and instead I should be refining my game playing against better players but this is my current reasoning.

Again I consider this to be one of my poor hands but wanted to critique as to just how poor [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Will
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  #9  
Old 09-17-2004, 11:22 AM
CrisBrown CrisBrown is offline
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Default Re: Is this play too aggressive?

Hi Will,

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you very much for your post. Although it is rather direct, I think you are exactly right. I was more "wishing" for a certain thing than being realistic and that is obviously going to lead me down the wrong path.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry for my directness, as that can easily be abrasive, and thank you for taking it in the spirit in which it was intended. And yes, playing wishes rather than reads will definitely get you in trouble. This goes back to an thread last week about betting where the only hand you can beat is a total bluff. One of the marks of weaker players is that they readjust their reads to what they can beat ... betting a wish. Don't let yourself fall into this habit. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
I also agree with your comment about playing my usual tight game at the lower levels but part of the reason I am playing at the lower level as well is because I am trying to work on my post-flop play and trying to gauge how to play against what I consider really bad players (I see a lot in the B&amp;M tourney I play at too). Perhaps this is a bad strategy and instead I should be refining my game playing against better players but this is my current reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Post-flop play against bad players ... well, that depends on which version of "bad" they are.

The first kind is Meek Mike. He's squeaky-tight post-flop, i.e.: he see a lot of flops, but he'll bail if he doesn't hit. A lot of the time a semi-bluff or bluff bet is a good idea. If he missed, as he usually will have, he's going to fold to the person who "hit" (i.e.: the person who bet).

However, there's a corrolary: if Meek Mike calls on the flop, he's hit something, every time. Now you have to abandon the bluffs and semi-bluffs, and only give action on a hand that can stand action all the way to the river. If you have a hand that's not likely to improve much, and is only marginally likely to be the best hand, it is usually better to try to show it down as cheaply as you can. If it's good, fine. If it's not, you haven't poured a whole lot into an ill-timed bluff.

The other common kind of bad post-flop player is Charlie Chaser. He'll call any kind of draw, often even gutshots and backdoors. He's the enternal optimist: "Well, it could get better!" Against this kind of player, you bluff and semi-bluff less, if at all, because he's not going to fold any hand that "looks possible." The corrolary here is that you can bet your made hands -- even marginal ones -- for value. If an obvious draw hits, you can get away from it without paying off his implied odds. Otherwise, you can usually take the pot with any improved (two pair or better) hand.

The problem with trying to "practice against bad players" is that you really don't need to. The basic adjustments for bad players are fairly easy and reliable. Read what kind of bad player(s) you're facing -- in this particular pot -- and make your adjustments accordingly.

Cris
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  #10  
Old 09-17-2004, 02:03 PM
La Brujita La Brujita is offline
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Default Re: Is this play too aggressive?

I haven't read all the other responses but here goes:

1. I open raise preflop. Once it is back to me preflop I make a very big raise, potter or so to try to take it down there (or more specifically play hu against all in).

2. I lead out at this pot but a check raise all in isn't terrible. Once you checked it is your best option. You only have a little folding equity but you have a bunch of outs unless up against a set, still then you have outs. Against JT for example you would have had 15 outs so you would have been in good shape.

I play two overcards and a flush draw very strong, I think leading out is the best play.
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