Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > Limit Texas Hold'em > Small Stakes Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-20-2005, 06:35 AM
Beck Beck is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Denmark
Posts: 188
Default Flush draw: calling a flop bet, or raising for free card??

The following situation is fictional, but one I encounter often:

I limp with a suited ace, and when the flop comes, I got 2 people to act before and 2 to act behind me.
I assume that if I make the Nut flush I win the hand (which isn't always so, I know)

The flop gives me a nut flush draw, but no pair.
Early position bets out, 1 folds, hero??

If I call, and the 2 behind me folds, well, I had the odds to call the bet.
If I call, and 2 behind me also calls, I basically made money, since I flush 35% if going all the way, and with 3 people besides me putting a bet in at flop, I would only need 25% win, right?

Or put in another way: For every bet I put in at the flop, as long as 2 other come along, that's a break even play, right?

So what if I try to raise to get a free card?
If they both fold behind me, the early bettor calls, and I get the free card, well that's fine.
If I get 1 behind me and the original bettor to call, then yt's break even.
If they both call behind me, well, then I just pumped my flush draw.

What I'm getting at, when I'm out of position, when should I just call with my flush draw, and when should I raise?

I know, that if the 2 behind me folds, and early bettor 3-bets, then it's a bad play, but isn't that made up for, with the times, Iget free cards, pump my draw, perhaps make a semibluff on the turn taking the pot etc.??

If my scenario is unclear, please let me know, and I'll try to explain my thoughts further.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-20-2005, 06:54 AM
WillMagic WillMagic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Cupertino, CA (formerly DC)
Posts: 250
Default Re: Flush draw: calling a flop bet, or raising for free card??

Raise for value and/or a freecard...

This belongs here.

Will
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-20-2005, 04:17 PM
Beck Beck is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Denmark
Posts: 188
Default Re: Flush draw: calling a flop bet, or raising for free card??

So you would never just call a bet from somebody you had position on, with a nut flush draw on the flop? You would always raise?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-20-2005, 04:27 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Flush draw: calling a flop bet, or raising for free card??

You raise here to get a free card, but also to fold bigger aces. You want to make sure if you hit your Ace you can still win the pot. If you held like 45s on a board with 3 overs, calling would probably be correct.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-20-2005, 04:47 PM
Solid_p Solid_p is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 34
Default Re: Flush draw: calling a flop bet, or raising for free card??

[ QUOTE ]
You raise here to get a free card, but also to fold bigger aces. You want to make sure if you hit your Ace you can still win the pot. If you held like 45s on a board with 3 overs, calling would probably be correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the pot is small, it's better to just call and invite the other in, so you win a larger pot when a flush card hits. In a large pot, raising here is good. You then raise to fold out better aces and increase your equity. If called behind, well then the raise was for value.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-20-2005, 04:50 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Flush draw: calling a flop bet, or raising for free card??

[ QUOTE ]
So you would never just call a bet from somebody you had position on, with a nut flush draw on the flop? You would always raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are not "always" or "never" moves in poker. Sometimes the situation calls for a raise, while others call for just a call.

In the hypo you set out (1 bet, 1 fold, your turn to act with 2 players yet behind you), I like raising for the free card. The original better is 99.9% sure to call your raise, as people who bet on the flop rarely fold to a raise. By raising, you will more than likely get the 2 players behind you to fold, opening the door for taking a free card on the turn if you like.

One exception to this recommendation might be when either the flop is coordinated (7-8-9 for example) or all random low cards (such as 2-5-7). For the low-card flop, depending on the players at the limit you play at, people in later positions will call a bet and a raise with any 2 big cards, figuring that such an "ugly" flop couldn't have helped anyone. So you have to figure out if the players behind you are likely to fold to your raise.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:36 AM
Beck Beck is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Denmark
Posts: 188
Default Re: Flush draw: calling a flop bet, or raising for free card??

[ QUOTE ]

One exception to this recommendation might be when either the flop is coordinated (7-8-9 for example) or all random low cards (such as 2-5-7). For the low-card flop, depending on the players at the limit you play at, people in later positions will call a bet and a raise with any 2 big cards, figuring that such an "ugly" flop couldn't have helped anyone. So you have to figure out if the players behind you are likely to fold to your raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

But would it be that terrible if someone behind me called only with overcards?? I mean, as long as 2 people come along (early bettor and late position coldcaller) I should be fine, right?

Normally I do raise in these situations.I was just interested under which conditions I shouldn't raise.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.