I've been Thinking - Page 8

MMMMMM · #71 10-06-2005, 01:25 PM

Yes, some verses are quite clear.

Heh, it's a bit like reading the U.S. Constitution, lol. Some parts are quite vague, whereas others are very clear. Other parts may fall in between. But it isn't ALL just a matter of inerpretation. Parts of it are, sure. But not ALL of it.

vulturesrow · #72 10-06-2005, 01:27 PM

You are reading too much into my statement. And yes there exist Christian fundamentalists that believe that the Bible is the word of God, that none of it is allegorical or figurative. Usually the same people who believe the Earth has only existed for 6000 years.

And no, that isnt my view of the Bible. The point is that religious texts can be interpreted in a wide variety of ways, and that not many religions are so monolithic that everyone interprets their texts in the same way.

MaxPower · #73 10-06-2005, 01:32 PM

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I don't approve of any ideology whose sole purpose it to make us feel good about ourselves and justify all of our actions. I don't want to compare you to any historical figures, but I fear before long you will prospose the final solution.

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What about your personal ideaology, Max? Doesn't your personal ideaology make you feel good and justify your actions here for comparing me to Hitler? Does that mean you don't approve of your own personal ideaology? Does that mean you have no personal ideaology?

Please, this is boring me. You give me the same moral relativism arguement which you can't win, and then you call me names.

Underwhelming.

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I never made any claims about moral relativism.

I don't exactly what my ideology is or whether I have one. I don't think I need one.

One thing I know is that I don't classify any groups of homosapiens as sub-human. Does that make me feel good about myself? Not really. It makes me kind of have mixed feelings about myself. I know that many Germans sat idly by while my ancestors were slaughtered in the concentration camps. I also know that I am quite capable of doing the same. That doesn't make me feel great.

It is very possible for me to love my country, defend and support it, without believing every one of our actions and motives are good and justifiable.

Believe me this is boring for me as well. It all started with your ridiculous assertion that you were capable of defining what it means to be a human being.

DVaut1 · #74 10-06-2005, 01:34 PM

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ACPlayer once posted a similar objection, so I thereupon went and found a Muslim website containing three different translations of the Koran, each by a Muslim scholar who was also a Muslim. I posted all three versions of the verses in question. While the translations were not identical, the general meanings were about the same.

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What you mean to say is all the words were nearly identical; I doubt there was any consensus on how to interpret such words.

I like your Constitution analogy, though; the words in the 14th Amendment are static. Good luck claiming a consensus about the interpretation of the 14th Amendment, though.

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But this is not an accurate portrayal; the most radical imams are also among the most deeply studied in Islam; they have essentially lived, studied and breathed Islam their entire lives. And their conclusions are what we would call "fundamentalist" doctrine. So why not take their opinion instead of mine?

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Because I'm quite certain there are scholars who have essentially lived, studied and breathed Islam their entire lives, yet they disagree on how to interpret the Koran, and aren't violent, and don't participate in terrorism.

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The Muslims most highly educated in Islam are frequently among the most radical as well.

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Please, please prove this. Please.

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No, the reason most Muslims don't go out and do those things is because they have better things to do, and are decent people. It's not like a huge portion of the Muslim population (of those who have actually read the Koran) think the Koran doesn't contain those instructions.

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How could you POSSIBLY know this?

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Because I've read so extensively on this and related subjects over the last half-dozen or so years, that I feel I can offer this as a generally accurate asssessment.

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Uhh....lol...forgive me if "c'mon, I've read!!!!" doesn't inspire trust. Lots and lots of people read; merely because 'you've read' doesn't give you an extraordinary level of accuracy. Your ego is quite large indeed if you think it does.

Put another way, I've been reading, too, so trust that I'm accurate instead.

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Of course there also exist many lay Muslims who don't really read the Koran much,

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Of course, there exist many lay Muslims who have read and studied the Koran extensively.

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and there also exist apologists who try to couch the violently aggressive verses in the Koran in more soothing terms.

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And there are those Islamo-phobes who wish to flame the fans of hatred.

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But the verses are really quite plain; and most imams worldwide would agree with that assessment.

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Really? Again, how could you POSSIBLY know this?

DVaut1 · #75 10-06-2005, 01:36 PM

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And yes there exist Christian fundamentalists that believe that the Bible is the word of God, that none of it is allegorical or figurative. Usually the same people who believe the Earth has only existed for 6000 years.

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Young Earth Creationists are not necessarily a small segment of Christianity, either.

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The point is that religious texts can be interpreted in a wide variety of ways, and that not many religions are so monolithic that everyone interprets their texts in the same way.

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This should be pretty obvious.

MMMMMM · #76 10-06-2005, 01:43 PM

There appears to be little further point arguing with you about this, DVaut1, until you do some research and reading on your own.

You might wish to start with MEMRI if you would genuinely care to gain some insight into what many noted imams think. It's right there in the transcripts of their sermons in the mosques.

I can go on telling you what I think they think, but you won't accredit it until you read it in their own words. So that would be a good starting point for you if you have any real interest in learning (rather than in merely perpetuating your own suppositions). I will give you the benefit of the doubt and surmise that you have a genuine thirst for information. But I can't really do anything more at this point to help you if you're unwilling to do some of your own reading and research.

MMMMMM · #77 10-06-2005, 01:46 PM

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And yes there exist Christian fundamentalists that believe that the Bible is the word of God, that none of it is allegorical or figurative. Usually the same people who believe the Earth has only existed for 6000 years.

Young Earth Creationists are not necessarily a small segment of Christianity, either.

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The point is that religious texts can be interpreted in a wide variety of ways, and that not many religions are so monolithic that everyone interprets their texts in the same way.

This should be pretty obvious.

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I don't disagree with any of this. I'm just pointing out that SOME passages can be pretty darn clear. It isn't ALL entirely dependent on interpretation.

DVaut1 · #78 10-06-2005, 01:49 PM

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There appears to be little further point arguing with you about this, DVaut1, until you do some research and reading on your own.

You might wish to start with MEMRI if you would genuinely care to gain some insight into what many noted imams think. It's right there in the transcripts of their sermons in the mosques.

I can go on telling you what I think they think, but you won't accredit it until you read it in their own words. So that would be a good starting point for you if you have any real interest in learning (rather than in merely perpetuating your own suppositions). I will give you the benefit of the doubt and surmise that you have a genuine thirst for information. But I can't really do anything more at this point to help you if you're unwilling to do some of your own reading and research.

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Like I said, your hubris knows no bounds. I'll consider this post as equivalent akin to your version of waving-the-white flag. I realize it's tough to comprehend that merely because you've read some books doesn't make you any more informed than the village idiot with a library card.

No shame in surrender, though. Well, okay, there's some. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

MMMMMM · #79 10-06-2005, 01:54 PM

So you're not going to do the recommended reading and research to find out more. Guess there wouldn't be any point in referring you to other sources for learning and research, either.

I'm not about to copy and link many dozens of pages of text from various sources for you. You can start by reading the one source I first mentioned--if you're genuinely interested. But it is becoming increasingly obvious that you're not interested in fact-finding, but rather in merely arguing.

What a waste of space.

DVaut1 · #80 10-06-2005, 02:01 PM

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So you're not going to do the recommended reading and research to find out more. Guess there wouldn't be any point in referring you to other sources for learning and research, either.

I'm not about to copy and link many dozens of pages of text from various sources for you. You can start by reading the one source I first mentioned--if you're genuinely interested. But it is becoming increasingly obvious that you're not interested in fact-finding, but rather in merely arguing.

What a waste of space.

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Conversely, let me point you to Army of God website for proof that Christians are violent and terrorists. I'm not about to copy and paste pages of text from various sources for you. You can start by reading the first source I've mentioned - if you're genuinely interested in fact-finding, and not merely arguing.

What a waste of space.

Can't imagine why "GO SEE THIS LINK! SEE, I'M RIGHT!!!!" version of logic fails.

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In all seriousness, I went and read some of the sermons. What do you think my response is? Do you think it's changed?

"Those sermons do not represent the true nature of Islam. For proof, notice that most Muslims are not violent. There is no consensus about the true nature of Islam. Impugning the character and quality of Islam by citing a few sermons is not sound reasoning - no more than finding a few nutty Christians and holding them up as a paradigm of Christian beliefs."