Folding the BB when you have proper odds to call? +EV?

[motorholdem]

Hi Folks

Ok, I understand the concept of calling a raise in the BB in situations where you would otherwise have folded from any other position. Let's say for example, in a Limit game you
have an EP raise, two cold-callers, and a fold by the SB. You are sitting in the BB with J8suited, and decide that you have correct odds to call the raise.

My question is this? Has anyone ever written any articles or posted any theoretical positions about the "extra" dangers and cost associated with playing such hands. I'm thinking about the times that you ge sucked out by a larger flush, or hit a straight and lose to a larger straight, hit two pair and lose to larger two pair, etc.

I realize that strong "2nd best" hands can cost big money, and I also realize that the tendency to hit these strong "2nd best" hands seems to occur more often when you are playing marginal holdings to begin with, such as the case in calling a pre-flop raise in the BB because of acceptable pre-flop odds.

Do any of you factor this in when considering whether to call a raise in the BB, or to complete in the SB when the pot is unraised? Do you up your requiremnts a bit from what might be apparent good odds, not so much because you are out of position, but because of the tendnecy to catch losing hands that are hard to get away from?

Do any of you say, "I've marginally got the pre-flop odds here to call, but situationally I'm in more danger than anyone else to catch something dangerous, so I'm folding pre-flop?"

I guess the question is, is it +EV to fold sometimes in BB when you have proper odds to "initially" make the call?

thx

[benkahuna]

I consider what you're saying when facing any preflop action.

The main issue I find from the blinds is position. I downgrade hands a little bit because I know I'm going to have to act first from the flop and beyond.

I'm not sure what limit you play at, but I typically play 6-12 to 9-18 and the starting hand selection of my opponents is generally so bad that I'm not dominated all that often.

I try to consider everything I can when making any decision at a table, but I don't really share your concern specifically in the blinds.

IMO the problem with never throwing away your BB is that good opponents will pick up on it if you have to show your cards a few times and limp in with monsters in late position. This is NL I'm talking about - not limit which I don't play anymore. Defending your BB is OK but not optimal strategy. The fact that you are first to act except against SB is also a problem for you. I'm willing to play a bit looser with my BB depending on the number of people who have folded, how much the raise is and if there are any caller or re-raisers, and also what the table image is of the person doing the raising, but I won't stubbornly defend it all the time.

[motorholdem]

thanks, but my question was not realy about blind defence, though I suppose they are interlinked.

[ QUOTE ]
thanks, but my question was not realy about blind defence, though I suppose they are interlinked.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are very interlinked. many players believe that they always have to defend their BB which is terrible stratagy.

[SamLuc]

With J8s in the big blind facing an EP raise and a few callers I am not looking as much at my current odds but my implied odds. In this situation I am not expecting to win with top pair but hope to flop a draw to a very strong hand.

If there are weak players in the pot that are likely to pay off my big hands and not tough, aggressive, players that will raise and knock me out of the pot I am more inclined to call.

Anyone else?

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I understand the concept of calling a raise in the BB in situations where you would otherwise have folded from any other position. Let's say for example, in a Limit game you
have an EP raise, two cold-callers, and a fold by the SB. You are sitting in the BB with J8suited, and decide that you have correct odds to call the raise.

My question is this? Has anyone ever written any articles or posted any theoretical positions about the "extra" dangers and cost associated with playing such hands. I'm thinking about the times that you ge sucked out by a larger flush, or hit a straight and lose to a larger straight, hit two pair and lose to larger two pair, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually J8s does not suffer from the problem you mentioned. Most of the time you make a straight or flush using both cards you will win, and the times you make two pair and lose to a better two pair is far outweighed by those times you make two pair and top pair spews to you.

Your point is valid for hands like A5o or J2s. Even if you're getting marginally correct odds to call, many of your "wins" come from weak one pair hands that are hard to play out of position. Small-Stakes Hold-'em (hand examples, preflop, A9o in the big blind) and Theory of Poker ("Reverse Implied Odds") address this concept.