Are my brains leaking from my ears?

[Jester999]

Does everyone lay this down on the flop reraise? Feel free to criticize at your leisure. Oh and just so it's out there, the guy UTG was reraising with AJ off and the BB had the 69 for the flopped straight.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed)

Hero ($105.65)
SB ($32)
BB ($121.95)
UTG ($55.60)
UTG+1 ($103.75)
MP1 ($40.50)
MP2 ($59.40)
CO ($40)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO (poster) checks, Hero calls $1, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($5) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets $3</font>, BB calls $3, UTG calls $3, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $20</font>, SB folds, BB calls $17, <font color="CC3333">UTG raises to $54.6</font>, Hero calls $34.60, BB calls $34.60.

Turn: ($171.80) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($171.80) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets $66.35 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $238.15

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

I dont like folding sets on the flop.

[schwza]

i would have...

- reraised all-in on the flop (after utg made it 54)
- pushed on the turn
- called on the river

in short, i'm putting the money in. and i'd like it to get in early so that i don't have to deal with a 6 or J hitting (or 8), and so that i have outs against a made straight. if they've got 99 or TT, they get my money.

[nightlyraver]

Here was your real problem - you played the 7's for set value when it was entirely unnecessary. Think about it, you were in position with a mid. pocket pair and the only person who voluntarily entered the pot was UTG who simply limped. IMHO, that usually means he has AJ or worse, but sometimes you will find that occasional player who does it with A's. Raise the pot pre-flop, damnit! If you had, you could safely rule out J9 or 96 even seeing the flop, and you would have only had UTG to worry about since he would probably have called for $4 more. Then, he (probably) bets the flop and you push, winning yourself a nice pot. Instead, you played it wrong and lost a big pot.

[xerostar]

I don't agree with this strategy one bit. How do you know that raising preflop can "rule out" the j9 or 96?

Furthermore, even if you raise preflop with such a mediocre hand you'll always get overcards on the community. What do you do then? Bet on the flop? If nobody has anything, they'll probably fold...which earns you the limp + blinds. Good job. But more importantly, what if someone calls or even reraises? Do you fold to a reraise? Do you bet again, knowing the turn is probably going to give you ANOTHER overcard?

77 is a MEDIOCRE at BEST hand. Raising more preflop isn't the answer either, because you're only going to get called by someone who has something that can beat you or has already beaten you.

Raising preflop on such a small pot earns you hardly nothing, and you could potentially lose everything, to a check-raise. I think you should ONLY play 77 for set value.

[nightlyraver]

well, if you raised 4xBB or 5xBB, it would take a pretty loose caller to cold call that w/ only J9s - and 96 is pretty much definately out the window. If you have reason to believe that J9s WOULD call that since it's that type of table, raise more or just limp and give it up. Moreover, yes, a better pocket pair may call you - but at this level, hands like AK-A5s KQ-KJ and even something a little worse may call. Yes, an overcard probably will fall on the flop, but it depends what type of overcard. You raise and an A or K falls, you could safely fold to some action against typical players. However, if in A or K does not fall - you may have the best hand and someone with no pair will probably not raise the pre-flop raiser on the flop, and only a draw will likely call, being easy to spot. It's all about playing well post-flop. I could go on, but it's pointless. All the pro's raise with 7's, especially after only ONE player has LIMPED and you're on THE BUTTON - it just depends if you play well after the flop. Also, if you only raise with AA-JJ, AK,AQ,and KQ, you are giving away too much info - vary it up a bit. Sure, you probably aren't losing that much if you always play it for set value, but why? Raising and getting the pot heads-up really does maximize your chances of 7's being good. NOt on an AKT flop, but probably on a T85 flop. No need to play so weak-tight....

[Jester999]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like folding sets on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, I don't either, but once the betting on the flop gets to back to me I have become more than a bit suspicious. Which brings me to....

[ QUOTE ]
i would have...

- reraised all-in on the flop (after utg made it 54)
- pushed on the turn
- called on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

It was hard not to get my money all in the middle, but I avoided it. Does it make me weak? You can make an argument for it, but look at the action post flop. I mean once it gets around to me and I raise, am smoothcalled, (danger!) and then reraised all in by a guy I have covered...well it's time to take a long look at the board. Look at that flop. What else could people have? I'm guessing that two pair (which I'd suspect from the blinds) would annouce itself rather quickly because it's so vulnerable. Mr. UTG is the oddity here, but his most likely holding seemed to be either pocket 8s, 9s, or 10s. And the guy in the BB really seems like he's trying to milk a big hand.

So back to the betting and logic. I raise to $20, am smoothcalled by a man in the BB who I REALLY believe is trying to milk a big hand. When I call the reraise (it cost me $34 into a pot of $102) I'm hoping, praying, guessing that the BB will just smooth call again and give me a chance at a free card on the river. Since one guy is all in, I still have a draw at a full house. Plus, at this level you can NEVER discount the 'monkey' factor. By this I mean that you're playing a pot against a guy who's clueless. This happens to be the case for the guy UTG who has attempted perhaps the worst bluff in poker history. All in all though, even though it saved me $50 it's all in or fold after the reraise. Just because I got what I wanted doesn't make it right.

Anyway, when the river comes I figure I'm beat in at least one spot so for me it was a semi-easy fold. Whew. That was long winded.

[ QUOTE ]
Here was your real problem - you played the 7's for set value when it was entirely unnecessary. Think about it, you were in position with a mid. pocket pair and the only person who voluntarily entered the pot was UTG who simply limped.

[/ QUOTE ]

While there is some value in your thinking, poker is never a game of absolutes. Yes, it would have probably solved my problem in this hand but it's not a 'default' setting per se with this hand in this position.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should ONLY play 77 for set value.

[/ QUOTE ]

This again relates to the above. There is never only one way to do anything.

As usual, I really appreciate those who took time to comment. Gracias.

[Kips Bay Kid]

Since you did not raise PF (wrong in my book) you should have folded to the $34 raise on the flop. Even if I am only holding 44 I still raise PF to get rid of all of the trash, you cannot discount hands like T9 w/o a PF raise.

[etgryphon]

One more weight in...

What about the principle of raise-folding in a MP? the 77's are the tricky cutoff-grey-evil area where you have to figure out whether you have a made hand or a drawing hand if the flop is ugly. I kinda lean toward the protecting the hand by a raise preflop, but again this is real dangerous if you get reraised you have to figure they are no good...

I do see the smooth call by the BB as scary...I think the way you played it was good, only debatable about the preflop raise and i can see arguments on both sides.

-Gryph

[nightlyraver]

This also really depends where and who the raise is coming from. If you open-raise to 4xBB and I want to isolate, I'll re-raise with AA-77 and AK, even with something like AJ, KQ or (and this is advanced, so don't try this unless you have a good read and play PARTICULARLY well postflop) QJs or JTs. Why is this? First for value and to vary up your play. Second, and most importantly, I'm still a coinflip w/ JTs against your 99-77 (if I notice you raising with this) and if I flop a good draw, I may still be ahead with no pair. In fact, even you QQ and I have JTs and flop a pair AND a flush/str8 draw, I am also ahead. I digress, but the moral is, if you raise w/ 7's and the next guy re-raises, unless it's some unreasonable amount you really can't completely rule out the possibility that you're still ahead.