Isolating a TAG - Page 9

avisco01 · #81 07-26-2005, 06:12 PM

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I think most reasonable 2+2ers would agree this is an easy fold.

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Yeah, an easy fold PREFLOP. I'd try this with A9 or higher maybe, mostly for deception purposes, but not A2o. Some players choose to limp with AJo or ATs so I don't see how playing A2o this way is beneficial really. I think this is most likely in the "spewing" category IMHO.

crunchy1 · #82 07-26-2005, 06:19 PM

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Yeah, an easy fold PREFLOP.

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It's fine if you don't feel comfortable playing hands like this. However, what you feel is correct play for you does not neccessarily mean that it cannot be +EV for another player.

Entity · #83 07-26-2005, 06:31 PM

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Yeah, an easy fold PREFLOP.

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It's fine if you don't feel comfortable playing hands like this. However, what you feel is correct play for you does not neccessarily mean that it cannot be +EV for another player.

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If by "another player," you mean UTG+1, then I agree.

If you can't fold the turn against the sort of player you think you're isolating then you should be folding preflop, though. I can dig preflop if you can dig finding a fold postflop.

Rob

hellite · #84 07-26-2005, 06:34 PM

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Yeah, an easy fold PREFLOP.

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It's fine if you don't feel comfortable playing hands like this. However, what you feel is correct play for you does not neccessarily mean that it cannot be +EV for another player.

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It is not a matter of comfortability. Once it appears that you are clearly behind, you contine to call down. That is the problem. I would be comfortable playing this hand, however, I would release my hand when the predictable player communicated to me that they have me beaten.
I believe the preflop play is a mistake. However, you might have had a chance to steal from the tag, but the tag keeps telling you hes gotcha and you do not listen. This is the danger of this hand. You are unable to release you top pair hand. You have no kicker.

The value of this hand - as you have already stated - is the ability to get the tag to fold. The tag will not fold, hence, your hand has lost the value it had preflop. So according to your own ideal of expected value, your hand has been downgraded to junk bonds and you are still buying. A mistake.

crunchy1 · #85 07-26-2005, 06:45 PM

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If you can't fold the turn against the sort of player you think you're isolating then you should be folding preflop, though. I can dig preflop if you can dig finding a fold postflop.

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I can! ...however,

I still don't understand why most of you seem to think that his stop'n'go is such a powerful move. I think the default play of a TAG after I've raised preflop and the flop would be to checkraise the turn.

I'm starting to agree that my flop raise was not the best move. I like ElSapo's call down line and I think the line proposed by yourself and sfer on raising the turn has validity as well. I don't think that after I isolate and then hit my hand it's an easy fold just because a TAG stop'n'goes the turn. It seems to me that this is just as often as bluff/semi-bluff as it would be a legit hand trying to 3-bet.

Furthermore, keep in mind that while this guy is statistically a tight aggressive player - most 2/4 TAGs are not using the lead-in-order-to-3-bet line very often. I also think that you'll see this line even less HU because you're going to get an extra bet from check-raising more often than you'll gain 2 extra BBs from a SnG. The SnG will tend to shutdown your opponent - like it did here, if in fact Villian was intending to 3-bet the turn if I raised again.

I could find a fold on a player that I had a good note on. On a player that I'm isolating based on statistical eveidence I don't think I should feel bad about getting to showdown when I flop top-pair on an iso attempt.

crunchy1 · #86 07-26-2005, 06:50 PM

If you want to increase your post count you could do so by posting something different once in awhile as opposed to posting the same thing over and over.

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Once it appears that you are clearly behind, you contine to call down. That is the problem. I would be comfortable playing this hand, however, I would release my hand when the predictable player communicated to me that they have me beaten.

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Predictable, IMO, would've been getting check-raised on the turn - to which I would've folded. A 2/4 TAG stop'n'going the turn HU is not, IMO, predictable.

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The value of this hand - as you have already stated - is the ability to get the tag to fold.

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Correct - but that doesn't mean that I completely disregard any value that I gain from hitting my hand.

hellite · #87 07-26-2005, 06:51 PM

Did you see those two clubs on the flop? You raised the flop indicating one of two things. (1) You have a strong hand. (2)You want a free card because you picked up a flush draw. Therefore, the tagbets into you on the turn because they can't risk giving you a free card. This is the first reason that you don't see a check raise here. The second reason, is that the tag has a good hand, but given the preflop action, you might have a better hand.

Entity · #88 07-26-2005, 06:53 PM

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If you can't fold the turn against the sort of player you think you're isolating then you should be folding preflop, though. I can dig preflop if you can dig finding a fold postflop.

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I can! ...however,

I still don't understand why most of you seem to think that his stop'n'go is such a powerful move. I think the default play of a TAG after I've raised preflop and the flop would be to checkraise the turn.

I'm starting to agree that my flop raise was not the best move. I like ElSapo's call down line and I think the line proposed by yourself and sfer on raising the turn has validity as well. I don't think that after I isolate and then hit my hand it's an easy fold just because a TAG stop'n'goes the turn. It seems to me that this is just as often as bluff/semi-bluff as it would be a legit hand trying to 3-bet.

Furthermore, keep in mind that while this guy is statistically a tight aggressive player - most 2/4 TAGs are not using the lead-in-order-to-3-bet line very often. I also think that you'll see this line even less HU because you're going to get an extra bet from check-raising more often than you'll gain 2 extra BBs from a SnG. The SnG will tend to shutdown your opponent - like it did here, if in fact Villian was intending to 3-bet the turn if I raised again.

I could find a fold on a player that I had a good note on. On a player that I'm isolating based on statistical eveidence I don't think I should feel bad about getting to showdown when I flop top-pair on an iso attempt.

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The stop and go move also keeps players like yourself from folding, where even a person with limited handreading skills can think oh, [censored], when he gets checkraised on the turn and find a fold.

Rob

crunchy1 · #89 07-26-2005, 06:54 PM

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You want a free card because you picked up a flush draw. Therefore, the tagbets into you on the turn because they can't risk giving you a free card.

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If this is the case then why wouldn't the TAG 3-bet the flop?

crunchy1 · #90 07-26-2005, 06:55 PM

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The stop and go move also keeps players like yourself from folding, where even a person with limited handreading skills can think oh, [censored], when he gets checkraised on the turn and find a fold.

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I've never seen or used (that I can recall) that application of the move. Nice post! Thanks for the tip! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]