First of Many

[Spladle Master]

The last two sessions of stud that I've played, I've lost a ton. I'm wondering if I'm just running badly or if there is some basic flaw in my game that I need to address. The first session was about a month ago at 3/6, but unfortunately I didn't save any HHs from it. It was so brutal that I just took a break from stud and built my bankroll back up playing the low-limit NL hold 'em tables and some SNGs. Sat down at 2/4 today and got raped again. I need help. So I'm going to be posting some hands over the next week or so that I'd appreciate comments on. My apologies to any who don't like reading what they consider boring or ordinary hands, but please understand that I'm questioning almost every mundane decision that I make and need reinforcement or chastisement (whichever you guys deem necessary).

Anyway, here's a hand.

7 Card Stud High ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.63 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in

4th Street - (2.63 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (2.81 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (5.81 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls

River - (9.81 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___raises

Total pot: (13.81 BB)

Results:
Main Pot: $53.25 | Rake: $2

Seat 2: [ As Qs 3d Kc Qc Ad 7d ] [ two pairs, aces and queens -- As,Ad,Kc,Qs,Qc ]

[Good Friar]

I think you played this hand alright, there's not much to be afraid of out there, and betting when you caught another heart sets up a possible steal if you catch another one. Alternatively, you coulda have tried to play it like split queens and raised third, but no one was going anywhere. Most importantly, you folded when you knew you were way behind.
Of the other hand, I guess I like the deception on fourth, but it's probably a waste at this level.

[beta1607]

You are not giving anything up by folding on 3rd. If you are having -sessions I suspect you maybe going to far with these marginal hands so its probably better to just give them up for now unless they have another redeeming factor like a 2 flush.

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]
You are not giving anything up by folding on 3rd. If you are having -sessions I suspect you maybe going to far with these marginal hands so its probably better to just give them up for now unless they have another redeeming factor like a 2 flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree'd, it's very easy to play too many marginal hands in 7stud, and 7CSFAP tends to encourage this. A random "high bag" is basicly good for ante stealing and little else. No point in playing out outside of that context.

[jon_1van]

high bags are good in tounreys. you nonly get 12 hands per round on average. so if you have a high card up and a decent shot a stealing high bags are great.

[dandy_don]

[ QUOTE ]
3rd Street - (0.63 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 3___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 3___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 8___calls
Hero: XX XX Q___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2___brings-in


[/ QUOTE ]

The call on 3rd tells me that you do not have a pair of split Q's, and no hidden pair of A's or K's, so either you are slow playing trips, have a small pair with the Q kicker or a drawing hand.

On 4th, I'm cautious of the potential 4-flush, and when the next 2 cards are blanks to a flush and the straight threat is gone, I'm back to thinking 2 small pair at best and bet accordingly.

[soultwist]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3rd Street - (0.63 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 3___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 3___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 8___calls
Hero: XX XX Q___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 2___brings-in


[/ QUOTE ]

The call on 3rd tells me that you do not have a pair of split Q's, and no hidden pair of A's or K's, so either you are slow playing trips, have a small pair with the Q kicker or a drawing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

A few comments about this hand, first a comment about the above. Are you saying that you would think that he didn't have the queen in the hole or his standard opponent wouldn't think that? Doesn't 7csfap advocate limping with a pair of queens in this spot, closing the action and probably not able to drive anyone out? I know I usually limp in with a pair of queens in this situation, depending on my opponents. I like your idea of viewing his hand from the opposing point of view, I'm just checking what your meaning here.

Second, I have to generally agree with others he saying to just not play the hand, especially if you are running bad or down at the table. Now if you are ahead and have a strong table image this is not the case, this can be a good but not awesome situation. But to play it I would say to complete in this spot. You are then representing a bigger hand and it should be an easy fold for your opponents when you are showing the pair of sevens.

Now, to do this you have to know that your opponents will be able to make that move. I think we have all played against that donkey that will call down to the river with a busted draw but managed to pick up a single small pair or something, make sure your not trying to do anything fancy against that guy.

When you pick up that pair of sevens, you are going to either win the pot or find out that you are way behind and if thats the case you have to get out of this hand. A small advantage of playing this way is you have shown your opponents that you will complete without having the pair of queens and you will be more likely to get action from a weak player when you actually have the queens and are raising from early position to shut out other players. This is why I say to only make the move like this while ahead at the table, your opponents will be more likely to fold and if they do not you will show that you are not invincible.

This is how I would play it, if anyone thinks this is poor advice please let me know.

[dandy_don]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that you would think that he didn't have the queen in the hole or his standard opponent wouldn't think that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally, the proper play for low limit stud is to eliminate players with premium pairs, and not to eliminate players with drawings hands or trips. Because he isn't trying to eliminate players, I place him on either a drawing hand, trips or a small pair with a big kicker (Q in this case).

IMHO, if I'm the bring-in with any kind of draw or medium pair, I'm watching the Q to see how he plays. With 2 callers after my bring-in, he would want to complete the bet if he really had the Q's. Giving me or the others a cheap card could not be the correct play in this condition against his Q's.

If I had a 3-flush, I absolutely want him to just call the bring-in with Q's.

[soultwist]

I understand what your saying here. I guess it kind of depends on weather the players will fold here from a late position bet when they already have put money in the pot. If the Queen completes and then leads out on forth street the bring in (assuming he called the completing with his drawing hand) is now getting about 9-1 on his forth street call. By keeping the pot small on 3rd and leading out on 4th they will be getting 5-1 and might be easier to get them to fold.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
Second, I have to generally agree with others he saying to just not play the hand, especially if you are running bad or down at the table. Now if you are ahead and have a strong table image this is not the case, this can be a good but not awesome situation. But to play it I would say to complete in this spot. You are then representing a bigger hand and it should be an easy fold for your opponents when you are showing the pair of sevens.

[/ QUOTE ]

My opponents were not paying attention to my table image. They were awesomely bad. I could pair queens on fourth and get called to the river by no pair, no draw, maybe one overcard. Dead serious, it happened a few times during this session.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, to do this you have to know that your opponents will be able to make that move. I think we have all played against that donkey that will call down to the river with a busted draw but managed to pick up a single small pair or something, make sure your not trying to do anything fancy against that guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think completing in this spot would be spewing. It's not going to make my opponents more likely to fold; it'll make them more likely to call on the later streets (correctly, given my hand). Against these opponents I would raise with a pair of queens every time, no matter my kicker, just because my hand figures to be so much better than theirs.

I would have completed with this hand if I were the first one in the pot, but not after limpers.