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#1
11-13-2005, 07:30 PM
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5/10 NL...A couple of turn C/R bluffs
Opponent is the same in both hands. He is 27/15/2.5. Seems to play pretty well. Above average intelligence. The hands are posted in chronological order. They happened maybe 5-10 minutes apart on the same table.
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx Button ($582.97) SB ($1171) BB ($813.13) Hero ($1125) MP ($1347.63) CO ($185) Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $5. [color=#CC3333]Hero raises to $35</font>, MP calls $35, [color=#666666]4 folds</font>. Flop: ($85) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)</font> [color=#CC3333]Hero bets $65</font>, MP calls $65. Turn: ($215) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)</font> Hero checks, [color=#CC3333]MP bets $111</font>, [color=#CC3333]Hero raises to $300</font>, MP calls $189. River: ($815) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)</font> Hero checks, [color=#CC3333]MP bets $211</font>, Hero folds. Final Pot: $1026 Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx SB ($587.97) BB ($1499) UTG ($778.13) Hero ($1004) CO ($1453.63) Button ($170) Preflop: Hero is MP with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $5. [color=#666666]1 fold</font>, [color=#CC3333]Hero raises to $35</font>, CO calls $35, [color=#666666]3 folds</font>. Flop: ($85) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)</font> [color=#CC3333]Hero bets $60</font>, CO calls $60. Turn: ($205) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)</font> Hero checks, [color=#CC3333]CO bets $144</font>, [color=#CC3333]Hero raises to $600</font>, CO calls $456. River: ($1405) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)</font> Hero calls $309 (All-In), CO folds. Final Pot: $1714 
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#3
11-13-2005, 07:35 PM
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Re: 5/10 NL...A couple of turn C/R bluffs
[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand your play in either of these hands. Both look pretty ugly to me. [/ QUOTE ] I agree. But ElD, why are you so nice? Shouldnt you say that in like... a meaner way?
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#6
11-13-2005, 07:39 PM
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Re: 5/10 NL...A couple of turn C/R bluffs
I probably just give up on the turn in hand 1, in hand 2 I can't believe he folded for $300 into a 1.4k pot unless he was on clubs too but then that's a really bad turn call. Turn bet is too committing.
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#7
11-13-2005, 07:45 PM
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Re: 5/10 NL...A couple of turn C/R bluffs
[ QUOTE ]
What don't you understand? If I am going to C/R the turn, a certain % of those are going to be bluffs. I'm merely posting the bluffs. [/ QUOTE ] Hand 1, you raise utg and fire c bet on A T 4r. Mixing your c/r (bluffs) is good and all, but when the K peels, what do you think he has to bet the turn, and what are you representing? It's ugly because your line doesnt really make sense. I can't think of a standard hand (that is strong!) that would c/r over just bet again, and weaker hands that want to showdown generally c/c. SO... It doesnt make sense. If he called to take away, or has a weak ace, I can see him folding, but alot of times a weak ace (like suited ace or broadway w/ a gutshot) checks behind the turn and vbets riv or snaps off a bluff on your part. So, for him to bet the turn, I think he either has nothing (and was calling to bluff) or has a hand that can handle a c/r. (IE he hit a gutshot, or more likely, 2pair.) So thats why I think hand 1 is ug. Hand 2 the c/r is more believable of a big hand, and leaving money on the end lets you make him fold missed draws he felt obligated to call your turn raise w/. So I dont think 2 is that ugly.
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#8
11-13-2005, 07:52 PM
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Re: 5/10 NL...A couple of turn C/R bluffs
Your logic is flawed.
You say [ QUOTE ] I can't think of a standard hand (that is strong!) that would c/r over just bet again [/ QUOTE ] and then... [ QUOTE ] alot of times a weak ace (like suited ace or broadway w/ a gutshot) checks behind the turn and vbets riv or snaps off a bluff on your part. [/ QUOTE ] If it is illogical for someone to C/R the turn with a strong hand, why would any sort of gutshot playing position or weak ace ever check behind on the turn and risk losing the pot? Note: I don't agree with your original argument either.
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#9
11-13-2005, 07:54 PM
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Re: 5/10 NL...A couple of turn C/R bluffs
[ QUOTE ]
What don't you understand? If I am going to C/R the turn, a certain % of those are going to be bluffs. I'm merely posting the bluffs. [/ QUOTE ] I don't understand your small bluff amount in hand 1 if you are not going to follow through. I don't understand leaving yourself $300 in hand 2 to stick into a $1400 pot on the river. Of course you should bluff sometimes. Yours just don't make much sense to me is all. What made hands would you play like this? What hands do you put your opponent on?
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#10
11-13-2005, 07:57 PM
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Re: 5/10 NL...A couple of turn C/R bluffs
[ QUOTE ]
Your logic is flawed. You say [ QUOTE ] I can't think of a standard hand (that is strong!) that would c/r over just bet again [/ QUOTE ] and then... [ QUOTE ] alot of times a weak ace (like suited ace or broadway w/ a gutshot) checks behind the turn and vbets riv or snaps off a bluff on your part. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] No, my logic wasn't flawed, it was possibly the presentation which was skewed. I meant, if villain has a suited ace or a big ace, either of which is one pair, sometimes with a gutshot, they check behind your check. If they DO bet, they DO fold to a c/r, but they MAINLY check. This means you wont have the opportunity to make them fold their marginal/weak hand. [ QUOTE ] If it is illogical for someone to C/R the turn with a strong hand, why would any sort of gutshot playing position or weak ace ever check behind on the turn and risk losing the pot? Note: I don't agree with your original argument either. [/ QUOTE ] What is my original argument? Only that your line doesnt make sense for a strong hand, which is what I imagine you're trying to convey with Jack high! Reason a 1pair hand checks behind there is simple pot control, plus to get people with jack high to fire bluffs on the river. Or, they can be fancy, bet the turn, thinkingyou'll c/r bluff with jack high, then call twice.
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