Did I suck out on this??? Odds question>>>

Taxmanrick · #1 08-26-2005, 06:58 AM

I just sat down at this table but it seemed pretty loose.
PT had he players in this hand as LAG. I felt I had adds to call these bets all the way and on the river checked because I felt I would definitely get a bet to c/r. Did i suck out?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, CO 3-bets, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, CO raises, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (16.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 28.50 BB

POKhER · #2 08-26-2005, 07:15 AM

Fold preflop?(Agg table = possible raise)
Fold the flop? Fold the turn? River standard.

7:1 flop, then you cold call 2 bets....

#3 08-26-2005, 07:21 AM

You don't have enough odds to cold call.

Taxmanrick · #4 08-26-2005, 07:29 AM

Maybe i'm mis-calculating...flop is 18-2 back to me(9-1)
Turn is 13.5-2 back to me(6.25-1)
I have a double gut shot both times(4.75-1)

Taxmanrick · #5 08-26-2005, 07:31 AM

By the way...I RARELY cold call...but thought it was right here.

turaho · #6 08-26-2005, 07:47 AM

Preflop is a raise or fold situation. Unsuited high cards play better against fewer opponents, so I'd raise preflop.

You have a double belly buster straight draw on the flop, but there's also a flush draw on the board. If you give yourself 6 outs (discounting for the flush draw--I'm not going to consider your overcard outs for now, but you'll see why), then your first flop call is fine (you need 6.7:1 to continue and you're getting 7:1). I'd be worried with four people left to act after you, though.

When it comes back to you on the flop raised and re-raised you again have the odds (9:1 to call this time) so you're fine, but I'd be convinced someone was on a flush draw, if not a flopped straight by this point.

Your turn decision is offering you perfect break-even odds (6.75:1 when it's back to you) and the pot is plenty big and your implied odds will pay off big time if you hit, so it's also a call.

River is standard.

So yes, you did have odds to call the whole way, but I would have been sweating bullets.

hemstock · #7 08-26-2005, 07:50 AM

Yes you did have the odds and implied odds.
I agree preflop you either raise this utg or fold.

KingOtter · #8 08-26-2005, 07:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop?(Agg table = possible raise)
Fold the flop? Fold the turn? River standard.

7:1 flop, then you cold call 2 bets....

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I'd fold this hand just because I thought it was possible a raise was going to happen.

Even in my normal, non-LAG tables, the average PFR % can be around 5 or 6%, which means that more than half of the time there is a raise pf (I prefer it around 3% though, of course).

If the table is loose enough, and you can expect more than just the aggro person in the hand I don't think a limp is bad.

You had the odds, with the double-gutshot, so it wasn't a suckout per-se. A suck-out is calling without odds and hitting a small-outter to take the pot.

Since your 'outs' were very likely winners, it was okay to call with the outs even with the aggression that probably states there's an AA out there, or a set. If the board had been paired I would like it a lot less. I also wouldn't have liked any raises if just a K or J fell.

KO

KingOtter · #9 08-26-2005, 07:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is a raise or fold situation. Unsuited high cards play better against fewer opponents, so I'd raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uggh... I don't think I'd ever raise KJo UTG. If you get called, you're a dog, IMO.

It is true that unsuited high cards play better against fewer opponents, and yes I would raise KJo in late position to isolate a loose limper, but I would not raise it UTG. I really really don't like that idea.

KO

Innocentius · #10 08-26-2005, 07:56 AM

I think the only questionable call is your first one on the flop (well, maybe, as someone suggested above, with an aggressive table, you could fold pf). On the flop you get 7:1 odds, which seems good enough, but I think there are some factors that make the call worse than it seems. First, an 8 would give you a straigh with only one of your holecards. This makes a split very likely, and you migh even lose to QJ. Second, as the table is agressive, a raise behind you is quite likely, and you don't want to pay more to see the turn. I think this is a fold, but I'm far from certain.