Limit: QQ vs. KK flop

John Paul · #1 02-27-2005, 10:28 AM

Note: If you look at the subject line, you will see I started it with "Limit:". If you also play limit and want to discuss some hands - try starting your subject line the same way, and then it will be easier for us to do a search on the forums and find limit hands.

This is mid way through a limit tounament($5/$1) .

Small blind seemed like a reasonable player - not a maniac.

Should I have checked this flop? Bet out on turn? Raised or folded on river? Really at loss here - this is a situation where my ring game insticts are perhaps not so good, as my tournament life is on the line.

Party Poker Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind t100 (6 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

Button (t3080)
SB (t730)
BB (t1485)
UTG (t930)
Hero (t520)
CO (t1255)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB, t500) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB, t700) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.50 BB, t700) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 5.5 BB (t1100)

La Brujita · #2 02-27-2005, 11:00 AM

I think you absolutely have to bet that turn and its a pretty clear decision. It is a clear value bet as that is a pretty good flop. Two kings flopping is much better than one flopping, and even one flopping is not terrible.

You will get called down on this flop by most pocket pairs in pretty much any level cash game on Party, I have to imagine same for smaller tourney.

Absent a read, call down the river after he leads into you. If you bet the turn and were called and it was checked to you on the river you have to value bet it. The fact that it was checked makes it much less likely dude has trips because he would be scared of you checking behind flush card.

shejk · #3 02-27-2005, 11:04 AM

Let me see if I can get this straight - the way you played this you were left with t20, right?

The way I see it, I think you played it good. You really entice him to bet out with say ace high on the river there with your turn check. Folding is pretty much out of the question, and you do actually have a small chance of making the money, even with only t20 left.

Of course, he could have gotten the backdoor flush. But I find it doubtful if he would have folded, and even if the flush draw might have folded, so would a lot of other hands that might bluff into you with that check.

John Paul · #4 02-27-2005, 11:58 AM

So based on what your folks have said - would there ever be any good hands to bet on the turn. Recall that one bet puts me all in except for 20 chips. If any hand that beats me won't fold or any drawing hand what should I do? I can try to make the drawing hand pay up front, but if the draw hits, I am sunk.

I get the point about making a value bet on the turn as you would in a ring game - its just that here I only get to make 1 bet so I am not sure how much value is worth how risk.

John Paul · #5 02-28-2005, 10:09 PM

The SB showed 77 for a full house on the river. I don't if a bet on the turn would have pushed him off though. The next hand I was dealt KK, and busted out to a pocket pair of 4s that hit trips.

Phil Van Sexton · #6 02-28-2005, 10:53 PM

In a ring game, you definately bet the turn and maybe fold to a raise.

In the tourny, you must bet and keep betting. Maybe he would've folded, maybe not. You have to make an effort to get him to fold on every street. Letting him see a free river is criminal with only 220 left.