QQ strategery preflop and on (results not as important here as theory)

TRWIII · #1 08-03-2004, 08:30 AM

Both opponents are new (only been around one orbit), and this hand came up. Now, this particular hand played itself, but different machinations of it could cause situations that I'd like some input on. First the hand:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($6.14)
Hero ($51.09)
MP1 ($21.50)
MP2 ($5.85)
MP3 ($24)
CO ($52.84)
Button ($20.75)
SB ($23.45)
BB ($23.40)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, MP2 calls $2, MP3 raises to $9, 4 folds,50,5,50, UTG folds, Hero calls $6.50, MP2 calls $3.35 (All-In).

Flop: ($25.10) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets $15, MP3 calls $15 (All-In).

Turn: ($55.10) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($55.10) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $55.10
Main Pot: $18.80, between Hero, MP2 and MP3. > Pot won by Hero ($18.80).
Pot 2: $36.30, between Hero and MP3. > Pot won by Hero ($36.30).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows Qh Qd (three of a kind, queens).
MP2 shows Qs Ks (one pair, queens).
MP3 shows Ad Ah (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins $55.10. 

Now the situational questions:

1) The calling of the reraise PF was appropriate, correct? (I cant see pushing being right, but I'm still a NL newb, so I may very well be wrong.)

2) Whats the play if the flop comes with no card higher than a jack and it's rainbow? 2-suited? monotone?

3) I'm assuming that it's check fold time if an ace or king comes without a queen. But, whats the plan if the flop comes with an ace and a queen? a king and a queen? all three? do suits come into play heavily in any of these situations?

I think that's more or less it... and more than likely too much... but I'd like some feedback nonetheless. Still trying to wrap my head around all this NL wackiness [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

Thanks in advance,
TRWIII

Fnord · #2 08-03-2004, 08:34 AM

When MP3 puts over 1/3 of his stack in the pot pre-flop, I think it's safe to say you're in push or fold territory. No way you have implied odds on your set.

TRWIII · #3 08-03-2004, 08:53 AM

Okay fair enough on that one. Let's change the situation a little by tripling the reraiser's stack. Now how do the above situations come into play and what would be a strong gameplan? Forgive me, but I'm a sucker for hypothetical/theoretical discussions. It's a weakness, I know [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img].

TRWIII

Fnord · #4 08-03-2004, 09:04 AM

Now you're calling $7 for a shot at a $75 stack, with the pot already juiced a bit. Set value alone is cutting it really close, however calling and folding if you fail to at least make an overpair becomes viable.

JohnG · #5 08-03-2004, 09:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Now the situational questions:

1) The calling of the reraise PF was appropriate, correct? (I cant see pushing being right, but I'm still a NL newb, so I may very well be wrong.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the stack sizes of yourself and your main opponent, calling is not normally the play. At least if you do call, you are usually committed to playing for all your chips. usually you either go with it preflop and move in, or you fold.

Given the actual ratios, generally you should fold this QQ. When it is 10% or less of relevant stacks for your opponent to call your raise, a re-raise will often be AA or KK in this spot. You need reason to make an exception and play QQ here, rather than a reason to fold.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Whats the play if the flop comes with no card higher than a jack and it's rainbow? 2-suited? monotone?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you've called on these ratios, it is because you have committed to play for all chips in a dynamics specific situation. So out of those hands you have given your opponent, you play it so he gets all his chips in with those hands that are way behind. Those times where I may actually make an exception to norm and call here preflop due to dynamics, I will be checking the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
3) I'm assuming that it's check fold time if an ace or king comes without a queen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most likely I check-call if my opponent goes allin. As the only reason I am calling preflop is opponent/dynamic specific, and that opponent will have a number of hands I have buried on a flop with an ace or king, that he would have folded had I gone with it preflop and moved in as normal. Like I said, on these ratios, if I'm calling preflop, it is an exception to the norm, and my call is committing me to play it out.

This is why you normally move in preflop on these ratios if you decide to go with your hand. To avoid guessing games.

[ QUOTE ]
But, whats the plan if the flop comes with an ace and a queen? a king and a queen? all three? do suits come into play heavily in any of these situations?

[/ QUOTE ]

You play to get it allin. I will be checking them probably.

Folding is obviously out of the question, as you do not build a hand that you may have to come off.

[ QUOTE ]
I think that's more or less it... and more than likely too much... but I'd like some feedback nonetheless. Still trying to wrap my head around all this NL wackiness [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you meant your questions to have deeper money where calling the re-raise is the norm preflop.

Doh. Just noticed you changed the situation and tripled the stacks, say to about 75 each, in that case, put the typical opponent on AA or KK and take it from there. If you flop a set and an ace or king comes, you do not fold at any point. You are still looking to double through, but you may try and do that differently compared to when you hit the set with no ace or king. You don't build a hand to come off of it. You need to be 100% sure to come of it, and that will probably never be the case.