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  #11  
Old 12-28-2005, 07:50 PM
flawless_victory flawless_victory is offline
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Default Re: 15/30 Flush... I hate folding for one more bet...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and he's aggressive and tricky.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi elindauer,

I guess I should have redefined "tricky". He won't check-raise without some sort of made hand. In this case, I had to call the check-raise as I felt it was just as likely he's doing it on two pair as the straight.

Paradise Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Garland is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Garland raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12.66 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Garland raises</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (9.33 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP2 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Garland bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO folds.

River: (11.33 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Garland bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Garland calls.

Final Pot: 15.33 BB

Results below:
MP2 has 7s Js (straight, king high).
Garland has Qs Qc (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: MP2 wins 15.33 BB

That kind of tricky. He will chase all sorts of draws and bet on the flop once, but shut down afterwards.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Garland

[/ QUOTE ]i dont mind your call here, but this one WAAAAYYYYYY WAYY closer than the first hand... first hand fold is an incredibly horrible laydown... jesus. how do you fold there? whhhyyyyy?
second hand looks like you prob coulda folded to the river CR, but meh... paying off isnt too bad.
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  #12  
Old 12-28-2005, 07:57 PM
Garland Garland is offline
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Location: San Francisco, CA
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Default Re: 15/30 Flush... I hate folding for one more bet...

Hi there Nightwish,

Long time no see. What in the world does the villain have on the river that doesn't beat me now? He would have raised preflop with any big pair, so he doesn't have that. He rams and jams with a made flush on the flop, except perhaps the nuts. If not he probably jams the turn with a made flush. He does overplay his hands at times. For example, he raises and calls a 3-bet with unimproved AA on the river vs a set that filled.

Paradise Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Garland is SB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.66 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG folds, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9.83 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO calls, BB calls.

River: (12.83 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, CO calls.

Final Pot: 18.83 BB

Results below:
MP2 has 8h 8d (full house, eights full of sevens).
CO has Ac Ah (two pair, aces and sevens).
Outcome: MP2 wins 18.83 BB.

But most of the time he simply gets married to hands and calls down, especially on scary boards such as this.

It's pretty transparent he has a 9 and thought he out-turned me. He has to be nuts to bet with a flush into a potential full house on the chance I have a 9.

So my line of thinking, 95% of the time he shows me a 9. And I suppose he could have a flush probably 5% of the time, due to the play and the improbability due to my own two cards...not enough odds to call the river (1 in 11.5) and even if he does have a flush, some of the times he has A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and I still lose. A bet saved is a bet earned here, I think.

Garland
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  #13  
Old 12-28-2005, 10:00 PM
Nightwish Nightwish is offline
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Posts: 182
Default Re: 15/30 Flush... I hate folding for one more bet...

[ QUOTE ]
Hi there Nightwish,

Long time no see.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, no kidding!

[ QUOTE ]
What in the world does the villain have on the river that doesn't beat me now? He would have raised preflop with any big pair, so he doesn't have that.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't think he could have a single A, the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? That would be entirely consistent with a crazy tricky LAG's play (as the other hand you posted indicated), including the bet on the river where he figures he'll call a single bet anyway so he might as well bet out himself (which, incidentally, is also typical LAG mentality).
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  #14  
Old 12-28-2005, 10:46 PM
Garland Garland is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 351
Default Re: 15/30 Flush... I hate folding for one more bet...

[ QUOTE ]
You don't think he could have a single A, the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not. He's loose and aggressive, and overaggressive, but he chases, chases and chases with draws preferring to take a cheap stab on the flop with draws and mellow out on the big bet streets. He's not putting in big turn bet raises or check-raises without some semblance of the goods.

Garland
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  #15  
Old 12-29-2005, 12:44 AM
Dazarath Dazarath is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 185
Default Re: 15/30 Flush... I hate folding for one more bet...

You don't think it's at all possible that the bet was due to the river card trashing his hand? I've seen many poor players do that before. Things like slowplaying a baby flush, and then betting out when the turn puts the 4th spade on board. Or slowplaying a set on a 3-straight board and then raising when the turn puts the 4th straight card out. What does the villain's stop-n-go mean, and why would he do that as opposed to check/raising if he has a 9?
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  #16  
Old 12-29-2005, 07:17 AM
Garland Garland is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 351
Default Re: 15/30 Flush... I hate folding for one more bet...

[ QUOTE ]
You don't think it's at all possible that the bet was due to the river card trashing his hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's most likely he sees the boat, and he knows I see the boat and insuring he gets one big bet for sucking out, which I would not oblige him.

[ QUOTE ]
What does the villain's stop-n-go mean, and why would he do that as opposed to check/raising if he has a 9?

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy is weird, but not totally stupid (well, I guess that's relative). The stop-and-go means he's forbidding me from checking behind, which was exactly what I was going to do. He overplays his hands, but at the very least I know he has a hand from playing hundreds of hands with him. I'm almost willing to bet he turns over something like A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Garland
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