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#1
10-03-2005, 09:05 PM
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Betting into the PFR (Open-ended question)
You've got a couple cards in mid or late position and you choose to limp into the pot after a couple other limpers. The player immediately after you raises, buys the button, and all the limpers call (including you, of course). The flop comes down giving you a decent hand that's not great (ie not TPTK, two pair, or other very strong hands). The action is checked to you.
When do you bet into the preflop raiser and when do you check to see what happens? Give examples. Now let's say you limp in very early position (UTG or UTG+1), the player after you raises and he gets a couple coldcallers. The flop gives you a decent-not-great hand. When do you bet into the preflop raiser and when do you check to see what happens? Give examples. 
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#2
10-03-2005, 09:29 PM
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Re: Betting into the PFR (Open-ended question)
Alright, I'll bite. Not promising perfection though.
Here's an example of when I will check: 3 Limpers to me in MP2 w/ T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] CO, a loose raiser in the late positions raises, rest fold. Flop comes down J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] We may be still behind here but there are a ton of outs on the Turn that improve us. Getting a free card doesn't hurt us all that much either for that reason. I'm actually interested in what you have to say about this because I waffled between betting and checking when I made this up. Mostly because our T outs might be counterfeit sometimes.
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#3
10-03-2005, 09:34 PM
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Re: Betting into the PFR (Open-ended question)
[ QUOTE ]
When do you bet into the preflop raiser and when do you check to see what happens? Give examples. [/ QUOTE ] I will bet into pfr with second pair (not 3rd pair) when I feel the board didn't hit him. Example non AKQ and I'm firing and hoping he raises to clear out the field, if he just has overcards. I'm check/raising flushdraws and OESD. I'm check/calling gutshots, and calling for two pair too. And possibly whatever other backdoor draws I might have. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [ QUOTE ] Now let's say you limp in very early position (UTG or UTG+1), the player after you raises and he gets a couple coldcallers. The flop gives you a decent-not-great hand. When do you bet into the preflop raiser and when do you check to see what happens? Give examples. [/ QUOTE ] This question seems broad, but in general I'm giving the cold-callers credit for a better starting hand. I'd play flush draws/oesds the same way as I stated in the first question. I have a harder time betting into a pfr if the board is coordinated with broadway cards, just because if I've something like second pair, and the pfr raises my bet, well I can't expect the cold-callers to fold since they seem to like cold calling in the first place. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Check/calling sounds good in this situation for second pair hands and gutshots with a backdoor flush draw or something.
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#4
10-03-2005, 09:56 PM
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Re: Betting into the PFR (Open-ended question)
[ QUOTE ]
I will bet into pfr with second pair (not 3rd pair) when I feel the board didn't hit him. Example non AKQ and I'm firing and hoping he raises to clear out the field, if he just has overcards. [/ QUOTE ] I considered this when I fabricated my hand, but villian would have to have exactly AK for me to be ahead when he raises, otherwise I am behind and his raise has probably eliminated all the padding for any draws.
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#5
10-04-2005, 11:18 AM
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Example for consideration
The action is taken from this post. Most of the comments this hand received were focused on the lack of a preflop raise. I skimmed the posts and nobody talked about betting into the preflop raiser.
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.50. Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls. Flop: (9 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font> SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets...</font>
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#6
10-04-2005, 11:29 AM
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Re: Example for consideration
Wow good example. Betting is okay here i would probably check and see what the action is back to me. Cosidering you bet i like a bet/call flop and bet the turn line assuming you loose the other two players or no one shows any strenght on the flop. Iguess the problem with checking here is pfr could bet and be raised by co with a hand we are ahead of and that puts you in a tough spot.
There is really no easy way to play this one.
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#7
10-04-2005, 11:35 AM
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Re: Example for consideration
I also think in your example hand strengths are not going to be clear until the turn so i think how you play that street is probably more important here. Hand protection is not to critical here the only thing we may fold on the flop is a gutshot.
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#8
10-04-2005, 11:39 AM
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Re: Example for consideration
[ QUOTE ]
The action is taken from this post. Most of the comments this hand received were focused on the lack of a preflop raise. I skimmed the posts and nobody talked about betting into the preflop raiser. Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.50. Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls. Flop: (9 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font> SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets...</font> [/ QUOTE ] i like this somewhat. presumably we bet into the pf raiser to allow him to raise and hand us money/force out others. now, we don't -really- want our opponents out here, because we likely have everyone drawing to few outs, but we also don't want him to check this relatively scary flop through.
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#9
10-04-2005, 11:48 AM
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Re: Betting into the PFR (Open-ended question)
In both your examples you have excellent relative position in regards to the PFR, ie he is on your immediate left. You can use this to your advantage in two ways if it is a passive table. You will almost always be acting last so the possibilities of a raise behind you are slim, therefore letting you see the Turn with marginal hands cheaply. You can also use him to knock players out if you so desire by betting into him hoping that he raises.
This is another excellent example why you want to have TAGs on your left.
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#10
10-04-2005, 11:56 AM
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Re: Example for consideration
I would bet into the preflop raiser, so that a reraise would give gut-shots incorrect odds to call.
Flush draws will call anyway, but apart from trying to force out any gut-shot, you then appear to be behind any Tx,AK,AQ or AT, but ahead of any other made hand. So if betting into the preflop raiser resulted in his reraise and the hand becoming heads up, I would then plan on check/calling to showdown.
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