Haven't done one of these in a while - KK no Ace rainbow flop fold. - Page 4

Nietzsche · #31 10-20-2005, 01:39 PM

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Move down limits. You will get killed if you fold this hand on flop.

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These kind of stupid comments have started to swarm the forums lately. Why?

elindauer · #32 10-20-2005, 01:41 PM

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b) rare

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The rarity of this exact situation is irrelevant; making solid reads to analyze a situation correctly so we can make thin value bets, good folds or brilliant call downs is the skill to be developed here.

Link.

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Rarity is relevent in that your decisions make a very small practical impact on your bankroll. However, a psychological devastation like folding a winner in a huge pot may linger with a player for quite a while and have a real impact on his decision making.

For example, the OP has now made this fold only twice, but both times he was wrong! What kind of effect does that have on his confidence?

I basically agree that we should strive to play perfectly. Recognizing that we are not machines and making the occasional safe play in a spot that is close anyways seems like a perfectly reasonable move to me.

Think of it as equivalent to folding a marginal hand when you know you don't play well postflop. You're making a "mistake", but given your own fallibility, it's the right play.

-Eric

edit: I see now that you are actually arguing that this case is not rare, in that you'll be faced with similar situations frequently. Well, I think the occurrence of a big made hand + a huge draw is in fact extremely rare, and it's not even clear that it's the right play here (0 for 2 so far).

TimM · #33 10-20-2005, 02:16 PM

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I think the occurrence of a big made hand + a huge draw is in fact extremely rare, and it's not even clear that it's the right play here (0 for 2 so far).

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It's actually big made hand, and huge draw, and two or more opponents, and they greatly narrowed their hand ranges by playing aggressively pre-flop, and then the flop comes in such a way as to hit those hand ranges very hard, and then they continue the aggression on the flop. That's a big parlay.

I am probably not remembering times I was in similar situations and my opponents actually had the hands they were representing.

When I do fold a hand on the flop that would have won unimproved, I often wonder how I can avoid being pushed off the best hand by two opponents playing aggressively. In most cases I am talking about a much weaker hand than an overpair of Kings, usually just some random small pair I caught from the blinds. I don't see much I can do about it except take comfort in the fact that when I do hit a strong hand, like if I happened to have AK rather than KK in the original hand, they will pay it off immensely.

sthief09 · #34 10-20-2005, 02:26 PM

I'm sorry but that makes me sick. it's one thing if you're morally opposed to it, or believe that your game will become stronger without it. it's another if you're content and aren't desiring to make more

sthief09 · #35 10-20-2005, 02:27 PM

they mean a moderator loves you

MaxPower · #36 10-20-2005, 02:56 PM

Save your hand reading until the turn. Very often I see hands like this where the action slows down on the turn and river. You really can't read too much into betting and raising on the flop. If it happens again on the turn, then you should seriously consider folding.

TimM · #37 10-20-2005, 03:08 PM

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I'm sorry but that makes me sick. it's one thing if you're morally opposed to it, or believe that your game will become stronger without it. it's another if you're content and aren't desiring to make more

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I tried a HUD once, it was information overload for me. Perhaps if I stuck with it and got used to it after a while, it would be good. My only qualm about using a HUD would be that Party might take stronger steps to ban them, and then I will be glad I didn't become dependent on one. This is obviously not a very strong reason. Really I'm in more of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mode.

The stats I get from PT generate notes are fine. I update them after every session. I don't get real time updates on the unknowns, but I don't really trust stats based on a small number of hands anyway. It's a little more inconvenient to have to look at a note than have it as an overlay, but I have a good memory and don't really need to have it in my face all the time.

TimM · #38 10-20-2005, 03:17 PM

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Save your hand reading until the turn. Very often I see hands like this where the action slows down on the turn and river.

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This is the best answer and is in fact exactly what happened. My mistake was assuming the action would continue to be rough on the turn. I should have realised that one of them probably has to slow down because of the obvious potential nut hand against them.

Party Poker 20.00/40.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 1 folds, MP2 3-bets, 2 folds, Button caps, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, Button 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (12.25 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Button bets, MP2 calls.

River: (14.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB.
Results in white below:
MP2 has Qc Ah (two pairs, queens and tens.)
Button has Kh 8h (a pair of tens.)
MP2 wins 14.18 BB.

jason_t · #39 10-20-2005, 03:47 PM

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Move down limits. You will get killed if you fold this hand on flop.

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Did you miss the part about how I do this less than once every 200,000 hands or so?

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Ignore him. That's his standard line when he replies in MHS.

arod15 · #40 10-20-2005, 04:23 PM

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Ha. Don't feel too bad. Even if you call flop and turn you may end up folding unimproved on the river anyways. Call next time since it's a) close, b) rare, and c) painful emotionally to be wrong.

good luck.
eric

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