AQo out of position

private joker · #1 12-10-2005, 10:29 PM

Villain is unknown. Flop and turn could go in a couple different directions I think.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.70 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

River: (9.70 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.70 BB

Maulik · #2 12-10-2005, 10:34 PM

I think the pf is a fold. you aren't suited.

the flop definately a fold you don't have any re-draws and are drawing to an A or Q.

As played 3-bet the flop and lead the river? If capped on the turn, c/call river.

Harv72b · #3 12-10-2005, 10:35 PM

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I think the pf is a fold. you aren't suited.

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Easy, easy call from the BB vs. an unknown raiser.

Maulik · #4 12-10-2005, 10:48 PM

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I think the pf is a fold. you aren't suited.

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Easy, easy call from the BB vs. an unknown raiser.

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some old 2+2 mantra I beleive AQo v. unknown raiser in limit is a muck. I beleive we call if we know an unknown to be particularly bad or raising a wide range of hands.

private joker · #5 12-10-2005, 10:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]

some old 2+2 mantra I beleive AQo v. unknown raiser in limit is a muck.

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Even getting 7.4:1? I'd fold AJo here, but AQ?

istewart · #6 12-10-2005, 11:05 PM

I wouldn't fold AJ here. AQ seems like a pretty standard call...

Nick C · #7 12-11-2005, 12:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

some old 2+2 mantra I beleive AQo v. unknown raiser in limit is a muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even getting 7.4:1? I'd fold AJo here, but AQ?

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Since we're in the BB, I'd probably call with both hands.

I wouldn't really like any of my options with AJ (and I don't know what's best with that hand), but I'm thinking calling one more with AQ should be easy enough.

Harv72b · #8 12-11-2005, 01:29 AM

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I beleive we call if we know an unknown to be particularly bad or raising a wide range of hands.

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We 3-bet if that's the case, although you could make a case for just calling when out of position like in this hand.

Understand that AQo shapes up fairly well against even a "normal" player's UTG raising range, in a game like 5/10. Most players are raising aces AJs+ and pocket pairs 99-AA; we're tied with his AQ hands, crushed by his AK/AA hands, and a pretty significant dog with lousy implied odds vs. KK and QQ. But we're ahead of AJs, and a coinflip against JJ-99. When you factor in the pot odds you're getting, that makes AQo a pretty easy call here, as long as you're not planning to overplay a TPTK hand postflop.

Now, when you consider that more than a few players are also raising with AJo, ATs, KQs, 88, and even KJs from UTG...

Jake (The Snake) · #9 12-11-2005, 03:11 AM

Hey Harv,

Do you ever do this against someone you don't have a read on? And by read I don't mean TAG or stats, I mean somebody who you know will often release on the turn without a made hand.

I ask this because I'm wondering if you think this kind of play is profitable based on hand ranges alone or if you think we need to sometimes fold better hands like AK for example. I feel like against an unknown TAG, too often I would get called on the turn and then not know whether TAG has AK or a pocket pair on the river, and not know whether betting again is throwing money away.

Harv72b · #10 12-10-2005, 10:34 PM

This is exactly the kind of situation where I'd try a c/r on the flop. Well, not exactly since it'd be better if MP3 had folded, but good enough.

Given your flop line, I like your turn/river line. Donk the turn to make sure it doesn't check through when he's got JJ or something, and just call the raise because you don't know if he's holding a set or AK. If you felt confident enough to 3-bet here, then c/r would probably be better (because I'd imagine you'd have to read UTG as pretty bad aggressive to 3-bet, in which case you can count on him to bet the turn regardless).